Tolkien's Problem with Dune

Tolkien didn't like Dune...but why? And why do so many Lord of the Rings fans adore it?

[clerns]

Well Tolkien was more of a spider guy than a worm guy.

[philiptaylor]

I suspect that Tolkien as a deeply spiritual and religious person was appalled by Herbert’s profound cynicism with regard to religion in Dune, treating it as nothing more than a way of manipulating and controlling the masses. Although there is no trace of any formal religion in Tolkien’s world it is “charged with the grandeur of God” as Hopkins would have it.

[ChristopherDazey]

Also, Anakin Skywalker was not a big Dune fan.

[pantherapardus]

I think most people are forgetting a rather crucial part of Tolkien's life that heavily influenced his outlook on life and perhaps offer a reason as to why he disliked Dune. WW1. His time in the trenches and the traumatic events inflicted upon him there more than likely would have led him to become even more grounded in his beliefs as they, along perhaps with his wife and children, may have given hope for the future and helped him cope with whqtever trauma-related issues he may or may not have been struggling with.

So upon reading Dune, perhaps he found it's more somber and morose tone to be too cynical, jaded and defeatist in regards to life and humanity itself as he would've experienced first-hand the worst of what men could do to each other and yet throughout his life, expressed countless times throughout his works, he always had hope. At least, as far we know he did.

[jimbombadill]

well to be honest, Dune is realy dry...

[vmlinuxz]

Tolkien was correct in saying that he could not be a good critic as a competitor, and that was not his role or place. That was truly the best take, because he knew he would be unfairly biased.

[Capjedi]

Love the angle!

Yes, J.R.R. Tolkien was very particular, and spiritually minded. However, he was a huge fan of trees! In Dune, there are no trees! How can one write a fantasy without the beauty of trees? I'm sure that was it.

[lindseycaldwell]

I wasn't expecting to cry during this video, but I got a little misty-eyed during the spiel about love and honor being special because while you were saying that I was thinking about the way Tolkien talks about friendship and the combination of the two hit me in the feels.

[ViRoseLaBianca]

“Tolkien didn’t like cars” why did I immediately think you meant the Pixar film? Timeline issues assign, that was a funny visual.

[Rochambo]

I know in my brain LOTRs was published in ‘54 but my heart has a hard time coming to terms with the fact that Tolkien and Herbert were contemporaries. It’s like how Dali and Picasso lived far into the 1900’s… just doesn’t compute lol

[samhayes-astrion]

"Fantasy and science fiction are fundamentally different genres."
Me: _scrunches my face in confusion as i can't hear you over the sound of my blender turning fantasy and sci-fi into a science fantasy smoothie_

[smashdriven]

I like how she holds that cup the whole time but never drinks out of it.

[MarlinMay]

My take goes as follows.
Tolkien was a devout Christian. The very idea of breeding a Messiah would have shocked him to his very core, perhaps even disgusted him.
The supernatural doesn't exists in the universe of Dune. No god in the sky, no angelic beings, no multitude of spirits. Every fantastic thing that happens is the result of hard work by humans with no assistance or intervention from beings on high. Dune is materialistic.
The Dune saga is about looking forward towards a perilous future. Tolkien's legendarium is about looking back at a golden age.
The world of Dune is grounded in technology. >Everyone< in the stories has a "Mind of machines and wheels." Were Saruman a wise and powerful human being, he would have fit into the power structures portrayed in the Dune saga. We all know how Tolkien felt about technology, complex machines, even Saruman himself.
I am not at all surprised he hated Dune.

[shlazzargh]

I think that one of the commonalities that make me love both Dune and LOTR is that both hint at a much wider universe than what is actually written in the pages. You get a sense that there are vast sweeps of time -- both forward and backward -- and they help enrich the story even if there are not any specifics. So many authors try to specify or canonize their entire world that those worlds feel smaller and less inhabitable.

[Exilum]

Ever since I read about a decade ago, I've always thought Tolkien was a better world builder (and linguist) than writer. Even when considering that many of the fantasy tropes emerged from his work, a lot of the storyline itself felt poor and lackluster. That may be a reason why the structure of the story saw significantly less copy and derivative works than the world itself. It's the hero's journey all over again. Reading it, it felt like Frodo was just a vehicle for Tolkien to show you what he wanted to show you while going through predetermined checkpoints. All the thinking went into the background (very wide scope) and the individual sentences and paragraphs (very tight scope), with little regard for the plotline.
Not that I'm a big fan of Dune, I haven't read Dune, so it's not really in its defense, but really just about LOTR himself.

[JumpRPicturs]

Tolkien wanted what all fantasy writers want - to have their readers dream.
Herbert wanted what all science fiction writers want - to warn their readers.

Neither is inherently better or worse, right or wrong, both serve their intended purpose... and the fact that both these men used so many similar elements and techniques throughout their biggest works shows that they are indeed good stories made by great storytellers...
Only one question remains: which effect you are in the mood for :)

[ericvicaria]

Why do I love both LOTR and Dune, even though neither is perfect? They both take their audience seriously. Both authors assume we will care deeply about their ideas as they do, and they each worked as hard as possible to make their ideas interesting.

[oimss]

I imagine the reason he didn’t like Dune is the same reason he wouldn’t like ASOIAF if he had lived to read it: it’s very cynical and almost hopeless. Nothing is really redeemed.

[beaver_warrior]

Tolkien wanted his readers to dream. Herbert wanted his readers to wake up.

[oscarstainton]

As far as I know, the only contemporary genre writer’s work Tolkien enjoyed was Robert E. Howard’s Conan the Barbarian books. Its a shame that Howard died quite young and the two never had chance to meet, with a smoke and mug of ale in hand.