Dr Layne Norton: The Science of Eating for Health, Fat Loss & Lean Muscle | Huberman Lab Podcast #97

#HubermanLab #Nutrition #Exercise

Thank you to our sponsors

Supplements from Momentous

Huberman Lab Premium

Social & Website

Dr. Layne Norton

Articles

Other Resources

Timestamps
00:00:00 Dr. Layne Norton, Nutrition & Fitness
00:02:53 LMNT, ROKA, InsideTracker, Momentous
00:06:50 Calories & Cellular Energy Production
00:12:35 Energy Balance, Food Labels, Fiber
00:15:19 Resting Metabolic Rate, Thermic Effect of Food
00:19:04 Exercise & Non-Exercise Activity Thermogenesis (NEAT)
00:25:49 Losing Weight, Tracking Calories, Daily Weighing
00:29:24 Post-Exercise Metabolic Rate, Appetite
00:35:04 AG1 (Athletic Greens)
00:36:19 Exercise & Appetite, Calorie Trackers, Placebo Effects & Beliefs
00:43:46 Exercise & Satiety Signals, Maintain Weight Loss & Identity
00:56:32 Weight Loss & Maintenance, Diet Adherence
01:03:33 Restrictive Diets & Transition Periods
01:08:03 Gut Health & Appetite
01:16:23 Tool: Supporting Gut Health, Fiber & Longevity
01:23:59 LDL, HDL & Cardiovascular Disease
01:30:31 Leucine, mTOR & Protein Synthesis
01:37:31 Tool: Daily Protein Intake & Muscle Mass
01:44:24 Protein & Fasting, Lean Body Mass
01:55:38 Plant-Based Proteins: Whey, Soy, Leucine, Corn, Pea
02:04:28 Processed Foods
02:11:54 Obesity Epidemic, Calorie Intake & Energy Output
02:17:33 Obesity, Sugar & Fiber, Restriction & Craving
02:25:57 Artificial Sweeteners & Blood Sugar
02:38:55 Artificial Sweeteners & Gut Microbiome, Sucralose, Blood Sugar
02:50:19 Rapid Weight Loss, Satiety & Beliefs
02:58:13 Seed Oils & Obesity, Saturated Fat, Overall Energy Toxicity
03:08:15 Females, Diet, Exercise & Menstrual Cycles
03:14:05 Raw vs. Cooked Foods
03:16:32 Berberine & Glucose Scavenging
03:19:12 Fiber & Gastric Emptying Time
03:21:00 Supplements, Creatine Monohydrate, Rhodiola Rosea
03:30:33 Hard Training; Challenge & Mental Resilience
03:36:12 Carbon App
03:47:11 Zero-Cost Support, YouTube Feedback, Spotify & Apple Reviews, Sponsors, Momentous, Neural Network Newsletter, Social Media

[hubermanlab]

Thank you for watching. If you enjoyed this topic and episode, please click the "like" button and subscribe to our channel here on YouTube.
Thank you for your interest in science! -- Andrew

[benezc]

My learnings:

Calories are just energy values.
Food labels can have 20% errors when analysing calories.
However it can still be good to track calories.  
Energy in and energy out is complicated.

Energy out depends on resting metabolic rate (50-70% of total metabolic effect) and the thermic effect of food which uses calories to break down food.
All calories are equal but different sources have different effects.
Fat is the easiest thing to convert to energy. Protein uses the most calories for your body to process.

  Exercise and Non-Exercise Activity Thermogenesis (NEAT).
NEAT is non-purposeful movement- i.e. people that fidget. People that are lean often have high NEAT.

  All watches/trackers are not accurate on how much energy you expend. They overestimate how many calories you burn with exercise.
However the differential can be helpful.

  To make intentional weight loss a goal- weigh in every day in the morning (after going to the bathroom) and take the average of the week. Then compare to the next week average.

 Scientific studies are very confined. Be careful about how broadly you apply them.
They can usually tell what not to do as opposed to what to do.
Placebo effect/The Power of Suggestion can be very powerful on your physiology. It is not just in your head.
If you believe something to be true it can be powerful.

  Exercise is one of the only things that will improve your biomarkers of health. It is the one hack you need to be healthy.
Even if you don’t lose weight it is still very good for you.

  People often don’t eat only because of hunger but due to things like social, stress, sleep.
Think holistically, don’t just focus on one temporary diet and expect to lose weight successfully. Think about your whole life.

  To lose weight and keep it off, change your identity.
People are good at losing weight but not maintaining it when lost. Think about what you will do after you lose the weight.
You can’t start a new version of yourself while dragging around your old habits.
Is what you are doing sustainable?

 To lose and keep off weight you need some form of restriction. Whether it is Nutrient/Time/Calorie restriction.
Different things are easier for others. Chose the strategy you can adhere to the most.
What is the diet easiest for you to adhere in the long-term? Do that one. One diet is not better than another.

 Scientific consensus moves slow. There can be disagreements between specialists and takes time to understand things.

Gut Health:
Gut microbiome is important for body weight loss. We have more gut microbes than cells in our whole body.
To improve gut health: Don’t eat too many calories, exercise and eat more fibre from diverse sources.
Fibre is a prebiotic. Prebiotic supplements work better than probiotic.
Diversity of fibre is key: Fruit & veg, wholegrains, etc

  One scientific study is not enough to change your mind, it simply moves the needle slightly

  Protein:
1.6g per KG of bodyweight is enough protein you need.
There is no significant downside to eating more protein
Fine to eat 2-3 meals of good quality protein across intermittent fasting window.

Total protein as well as distribution of protein matters.
However even if you consume less than that much protein e.g. due to fasting you can still put in muscle. Just may not be as much as with protein.

Plant sources:
You can build protein with plant protein but it is less bioavailability and comes with other calories/carbs.
Lucine is important for muscle synthesis.
Soy is a complete plant protein and taken once or twice a day won't affect testosterone.
Whey is very high quality protein. It may come from vegan sources in future.
You can blend plant based protein for supplements.

Processed food and obesity:
Eat minimally processed food.
One of the worst things about very processed food is that it makes you eat more and consume too many calories. But it is not necessarily bad in and of itself to never eat ever.
Some processed food can be okay for people that have a high energy need or trying to put on muscle.
Similar to if you are keeping a budget financially it is okay to spend more if you have more coming in.

Obesity increase is a bit of a mystery. Despite people smoking less, drinking less and eating less sugar it is increasing.
One big reason is that people are consuming more total calories and also expending less calories with exercise.
It is fundamentally an energy imbalance problem but don't be so judgemental. Obesity is higher in poorer areas and people that have had traumatic events.
Its like telling broke people earn more money than you spend. Technically right but unhelpful. So it's too simplistic to just say eat less and move more.

It is more helpful to implement habits to achieve the new lifestyle.
Sugar definitely is not good but may not inherently be bad. People that eat more sugar also eat more calories and from sources from less fibre. For exanple fruit is high sugar but due to high fibre is beneficial.
Just because a study is old does not mean that it is irrelevant.

Be careful of creating restrictions and labelling something as totally bad. People that purposely restrict sugar (or other nutrients) then crave it more and have a binge response.

Artificial sweeteners aren't so bad. Consider the whole picture again. Beverages with artificial sweeteners are much better than sugar filled beverages.
Some obese people can lose lots of weight just by having less sugary drinks and more artificially sweetened.
It may not be totally healthy but can really help people.

Aspertame and Stevia have limited effect on blood sugar and can be fine.
Taste buds are very adaptable. If you have very sweet food regularly you may crave and be used to more.
Unsaturated oils are generally better than saturated oils. But 7-10% saturated fats in your daily diet is fine.

There is not one perfect diet that will optimise everything. E.g. a diet that helps you build muscle may not necessarily be the best for longevity. Things are rarely black and white. Pick what works for you.

Males and females have similar responses to dieting and weight training. They have the same relative lean mass as men but just less absolute lean mass.
If you are feeling fine on your period it is okay to train hard, if not then do a lighter workout. Autoregulation is key.
Women may be able to go harder for longer and may recover slightly quicker than men. This may be due to less absolute loads

There are multiple ways to build muscle. Using light weights with high reps and heavy weights with low reps both build similar amount of muscle, if done to faliure.

Cooking food generally increases the bioavailability of protein. Just don't charcoal your meat as this could be carcinogenic.
Creatine monohydrate is the only form of creatine you need. It improves exercise performance, improves recovery, increases lean mass. It may also have cognitive benefits.
One isolated study mentioned it possibly may be linked to hair loss.
5g a day is fine. It can cause gastrointestinal symptoms in some patients, so you can split into multiple 1-2g doses.

Caffeine can improve performance.
Supplements may help but only a tiny impact compared to Nutrition and hard training. Don't get stuck in the weeds too much.
The main thing is consistency.
Learn to enjoy the process of working hard.

Do something hard and you learn so much about yourself. Physical, learning an instrument, learn a language etc.
The best lessons can come out of challenging things in your life. Perseverance, delayed gratification and overcoming obstacles.

[tonyakubo]

"I had to create a new identity" - truest statement ever about long-term weight loss. Still true for me after maintaining a 170-pound loss for 18 years.

[AnandJ]

Layne's content over the years has really helped me turn my life around. I was morbidly obese and I was able to lost 125lbs with a flexible dieting approach.

[stargazerbird]

This man is the real deal. A true scientist. He is also a gifted communicator. I was engaged for the whole podcast.

[MrFernandezMusic]

Huberman cannot release enough podcasts fast enough, all of them are just pure gold!

[morganonawhim]

I listen to these podcasts during my daily walks and have learned so much, but there's so much incredible information, sometimes I like to jot down notes that I can reference in the future. I'm thankful for the YT version with time stamps so I can re-listen to certain parts for key pieces of information, and also comb through comments to see what other people have taken away from the podcast. Thank you so much for putting this info out into the world Dr. Huberman and team.

[fluffyscruffy]

As an ex-amphetamines addict, I totally relate to the idea of creating a new identity. New habits, new interests, new friends, new lifestyle... Andrew's podcast definitely helped me understand the action of dopamine and how to implement an exercise regime.

[luiscrawford]

As someone who has dropped 25kg in weight from obese to healthy. The identity piece really resonated with me as when I was younger I completely changed my life around, and part of the reason was from the theories of addiction where you need to become someone new. If you are overweight, don't be afriad to become a new beast for people to see :)!

[TeeMajor]

🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation:

00:00 Dr. *Layne Norton is an expert in nutrition, protein metabolism, muscle gain, and fat loss.*
00:27 The *discussion covers various topics in nutrition and fitness, including energy balance, artificial sweeteners, gut health, fasting, protein needs, different diets, and supplements.*
08:33 Calories *are units of energy derived from macronutrients in food, mainly through the production of ATP in the body.*
15:23 Energy *balance involves tracking calories in (food intake) and calories out (resting metabolic rate, physical activity, thermic effect of food, and non-exercise activity thermogenesis or NEAT).*
19:11 NEAT *(non-exercise activity thermogenesis) plays a significant role in energy expenditure, and it involves spontaneous physical activity like fidgeting, which can contribute to maintaining leanness.*
21:34 A *classic study from 1995 showed that in a metabolic ward, people who overate by 1, 000 calories a day for six weeks gained weight and fat mass. However, some individuals gained more than expected, while one person gained just over 1/2 a kilo due to spontaneous increased physical activity.*
23:22 Non-Exercise *Activity Thermogenesis (NEAT) is the most modifiable factor among BMR (Basal Metabolic Rate), TEF (Thermic Effect of Food), and NEAT. A 10% reduction in body weight can lead to a decrease of almost 500 calories a day in NEAT.*
26:34 Fitness *trackers often overestimate energy expenditure, which can lead to misconceptions about calorie intake and weight loss.*
32:40 The *specific form of exercise chosen can affect appetite differently for individuals, but it's important to remember that beliefs and suggestions about exercise can also influence its effects.*
39:17 The *power of suggestion and beliefs can have significant physiological effects, even on substances like creatine, highlighting the importance of mindset and expectations in how supplements and interventions work.*
42:07 Exercise *can have an appetite suppressant effect, and it may not always lead to full compensation for calories burned, making it valuable for weight management.*
45:52 Exercise *likely affects appetite regulation at the brain level rather than just blood sugar, and it can make individuals more sensitive to satiety signals.*
48:19 Weight *loss maintenance is challenging because people often focus on the initial weight loss without considering long-term strategies. The key is finding a sustainable diet and lifestyle that an individual can adhere to in the long run.*
52:03 Successful *weight loss maintainers often mention developing a new identity as a crucial aspect of their journey, emphasizing the importance of mindset and behavioral change in maintaining weight loss.*
01:02:39 Providing *food to study participants can lead to higher adherence in nutrition studies compared to free-living studies.*
01:03:08 Low *carb versus low fat diets show no significant difference in fat loss when protein and calories are equated, allowing individuals to choose the dietary approach that suits them best.*
01:04:05 Switching *between dietary approaches, such as going from keto to omnivore, can be a reasonable strategy as long as portion control and calorie goals are maintained.*
01:05:28 Transitioning *from a low carb to a higher carb diet may result in a temporary period of insulin resistance, but it is typically not a long-term concern.*
01:07:49 Transitioning *out of a ketogenic diet should be done gradually over four to eight weeks to avoid discomfort during the adjustment period.*
01:08:48 Gut *health plays a role in metabolism, and there is ongoing research on the gut-brain axis and its impact on appetite regulation.*
01:10:16 Fiber *is essential for gut health, and dietary fiber acts as a prebiotic, positively impacting the gut microbiota.*
01:16:50 Consuming *fiber-rich foods, including fruits, vegetables, whole grains, and cereals, can support gut health and longevity.*
01:22:33 Some *evidence suggests that saturated fat, combined with bile end products, may have a negative effect on certain beneficial gut microbiota strains.*
Protein is *a significant lever for various health goals.*
Consuming around *1.6 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight is a good target for most people.*
Higher protein *intake can lead to increased calorie burn due to its higher thermic effect of food.*
Protein helps *preserve lean body mass during a diet, build it in maintenance, and support it in a surplus.*
The satiety *effects of protein can vary depending on individual foods, and not all high-protein foods are equally satiating.*
01:43:29 Satiety *depends on the type of carbohydrate; plain baked potatoes are highly satiating.*
01:44:26 Concerns *about the 30-gram protein per meal limit may not be necessary; protein distribution matters, but total daily protein intake is crucial.*
01:47:40 Muscle *protein synthesis may not be significantly impacted by protein distribution in moderate fasting protocols.*
01:54:55 Vegan *diets can support muscle gain with proper planning and the inclusion of isolated plant-based protein sources.*
02:00:11 Leucine *content plays a crucial role in protein synthesis, and supplementation with leucine can enhance plant-based protein sources.*
Most of *us should focus on ingesting minimally non-processed and minimally processed foods for the sake of health span and lifespan.*
Sugar intake *alone may not be the root cause of obesity; it's more about the overall energy balance.*
Sugar from *fruits, which includes fiber, doesn't have the same negative health associations as added sugars.*
The impact *of sugar on body composition seems to be influenced by factors like calorie control and fiber intake.*
High sugar *intake without adequate fiber may be a concern, but focusing on fiber intake is more important than obsessing over sugar consumption.*
02:26:47 Artificial *sweeteners like stevia are not necessarily harmful, and their effects can vary among individuals.*
02:31:03 Some *studies suggest that artificial sweeteners may have an appetite suppressant effect, but their overall health effects depend on individual circumstances.*
02:34:26 The *impact of artificial sweeteners on health varies from person to person, with potential benefits for some and minimal harm for others.*
02:39:07 Recent *studies on artificial sweeteners indicate that they may have some metabolic effects, but the overall implications are still unclear.*
02:43:55 There *is a publication bias towards studies showing an effect, and the center of mass of data in a field should guide decisions regarding artificial sweetener consumption.*
02:45:49 Preconceived *notions about artificial sweeteners can influence their impact on blood glucose levels.*
02:46:47 A *study suggests that artificial sweeteners may not be inert and could affect blood glucose, but more research is needed.*
02:50:36 Rapid *weight loss early in a diet may lead to better long-term results, but it depends on individual buy-in and sustainability.*
Ashwagandha may *modestly increase testosterone, decrease stress hormones, improve sleep, and show potential for increasing lean mass, but further research is required.*
Different forms *of carnitine, like carnitine tartrate, may have recovery benefits and increase androgen receptor density in muscle cells.*
L-carnitine and *its variants may improve sperm and egg health for those looking to conceive.*
03:08:33 - *Lack of significant differences in male vs. female diet responses and training principles.*
03:10:30 - *Muscle-building effectiveness of light loads up to 30 reps taken close to failure.*
03:12:24 - *Autoregulation of training sessions based on performance, especially during the menstrual cycle.*
03:15:46 - *Cooking protein-containing foods can make amino acids more digestible, and charred meat should be consumed cautiously.*
03:19:05 - *Gastric emptying time and its potential role in energy balance, with fiber improving GI transit time.*
03:26:43 - *Rhodiola rosea may reduce physical and perceived fatigue, enhance memory and cognition, and mitigate caffeine withdrawal symptoms, but more research is needed.*
03:28:38 - *Other supplements like citrulline malate, ashwagandha, and different forms of carnitine may have various performance and health benefits, but further research is required.*
03:29:07 Layne *Norton discusses effective supplements, including caffeine, beta alanine, and betaine, for enhancing performance and muscle gain.*
03:31:31 Consistency *and hard work in training, combined with a positive mindset, are crucial for achieving fitness goals.*
03:37:10 Layne *Norton explains the Carbon app, an automated nutrition and fitness tool that calculates calorie and macronutrient goals based on individual needs and adjusts them over time.*
03:47:11 Dr. *Huberman thanks Dr. Layne Norton for sharing his expertise on nutrition and fitness.*

[mn.claude]

As a psychologist I love that you are taking into account psychological factors as well. There is a reason why I had to study biopsychology and learn everything about the human brain and nervous system during my time at university!

[jasoncampbell]

After a meta analysis of this episode, the results are: "it depends"

[svetlioramos]

One of the, frankly, if not, the best podcast in the whole internet❤️

[sarahf]

This is honestly one of my favorite episodes. I don’t know how this wasn’t a 5+hr discussion. I could listen to him for hours and I have so many questions left haha well done yall

[derekconn]

I always find it funny, everytime ldl is announced as the cause of atherosclerosis. They always just say “we know the ldl gets stuck in the artery wall” but a mechanism is never said because it’s not the cause. Endothelial cells just don’t get ldl to stick for no reason because then it would happen in veins as well and yet it doesn’t. It’s part of the mechanism fixing damage to the artery wall from things damaging the walls due to high pressure so ofc it’s gonna be there, but the problem is stopping the damage not trying to stop the patching mechanism. It’s just a clot and fixing the problem even tho LPa is the problem but only because it’s hard to remove but I’d assume the body is doing that on purpose for a permanent patch yet they just continue to overwhelm the body with damage and with repeated damage plaques build up because it keeps using the permanent patching lpa and after enough damage to the same spot it’s just too much

[billbraile]

I battled my eating disorder (bulimia) from age 17 till my 40’s. Now in my mid 50’s I can actually say this without the shame and embarrassment. It wasn’t till I addressed the emotional component of my health that I finally broke the cycle. I’ve been maintaining a weight loss of 80lbs for over 12 years now.

I thank you for your work and especially this session as it very much spoke to me and validated what I dealt with for such a long time.

[derekmoore]

I think the weight loss and maintenance chapter was probably the most concise explanation of weight loss and lifestyle change. Choosing your restriction and what is the most sustainable long-term resonates with me. That, "killing your clone, " and asking yourself, "can I do this for the rest of my life, " hit the nail on the head.

[matthewragudo]

This is probably the best podcast episode I ever have seen/heard. I’m so glad that podcasts are a thing. We need the long form content to make sense of content as it relates to context the data relevances and these two are great in doing both.

[soulxtheory]

Greatest podcast of all time. The amount of knowledge in this conversation is absolutely invaluable.Thank you both for your wisdom and willingness to be so detailed.

[Xune]

50:30 I've made a conscious effort to check how I'm feeling when I get the urge to eat.

The biggest one is when I have had insufficient sleep, then stressed, then bored.

I've also noticed when I enter a period of depression my desire to eat increases, which doesn't help considering my weight is one of the reasons for my depression in the first place! Specifically I start craving sweet and carbohydrate rich foods, things like cake and pastry.

Now that I've made myself aware of these things it's easier to recognise that I'm not actually hungry and need to distract myself with something other than food. Walking has really helped with this. It gets me away from the kitchen, is mild exercise and provides a change of scenery.

Walking has really helped me to control my eating habits and to a certain extent alleviate the depth and duration of depressive periods.