MMO Design: Theme Park or Sandbox?

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MMORPG design can be broadly broken down into 2 archetypes:

Theme park: Specific areas of specific experiences built by the designers with self contained mechanics, player cannot affect the world in general. High quality experiences contained by limitation.

Sandbox: General mechanics available all over the world with player controlled systems, the world can be actively affected by player choices. Variable quality systems not contained by limitations.

Both useful, both attract a certain demographic, but theme park is objectively more popular currently.

Thanks for the Patreon and twitch support you beautiful people.

[tindekappa]

I propose a third category: date dungeon

[natecw]

Sandbox doesn't have to be openworld pvp, I feel like many here are conflating the two due to recent titles favoring pvp. There's no reason a PVE focused MMO can't be a sandbox

[devcrom]

With a little ingenuity, you could add ghosts to the bumper cars, though.

[communitywoodworking]

Praetorium as backdrop to the discussion of how theme park repetition gets stale: galaxy brain move.

[mordemasterkaiserhue]

I think player housing is a type of sandbox inside of a theme park that a lot of people enjoy/want in their mmo

[sjwarhammer]

This was a very interesting video. Often when I've expressed desire for a "sandbox mmo", it was never about building in the world or having unpredictable systems. I've always thought of it as an mmo where my adventure is one of my own making. To me, this isn't the same thing as building or character creation gimmicks, which I've also never thought much of.

I guess, when I say sandbox, I'm talking about games like the original Everquest. A game where you make your character, get out into the world and rather than following a predetermined path or being railroaded into a Main Questline, I got to decide where I was going to go and what I was going to be doing. Now of course my decisions were limited by what was in the game, what challenges I could overcome at any particular level, and what options I might suddenly have available based on the friends I made (or didn't) along the way, but I always felt like it was my adventure and my story. Sure, another player and I could swap stories about similar places we'd been in the world and monsters we encountered, but on a whole, it always felt like my progression through the game was unique to me and the choices I made.

I'm not challenging your definition of what a sandbox mmo is. I think you're correct. Just pointing out that you might hear the term used incorrectly by players like me who really want something in between a sandbox and theme park. The ability to go off the rails and create your own adventure, but still play in the world the designers have hand crafted for the players without being tied to questlines that force you to play through it to unlock new zones, game features, etc.

[MoonTiger]

God damn it, Josh. I started your video while doing an MSQ daily roulette and now I'll watch Praetorium while playing Praetorium? Such devastation..

[AnymMusic]

"you can't build a rollercoaster track through the bumpercars" is that a challenge?

[caintz]

With how focused your channel is on MMO content and bringing this specific topic up - I'm honestly quite surprised you have not made a video about or spoken (to my recollection) about Star Wars Galaxies and the private server environment that currently exists. This game feels to me like its a mixture of both design philosophies to a certain extent and the fans of this game are tremendously passionate about their favorite server. You may want to check it out sometime.

[Leahi]

I prefer theme park, mostly because in the majority of the sandbox games I've played, I get destroyed by whatever dominate player faction rules the server. It becomes impossible to get anywhere.

[atraxian]

Theme Park over sandbox for me.
Sandbox approach is great for single player titles, not so much for multiplayer, especially if the games leave free range to the players. It takes just a few dedicated players to ruin the experience of many others.

[DarkWarchieff]

I can't take a bumper car on a rollercoaster or build a rollercoaster track through the bumpercar area? Naive Josh, I got hacks for my rollercoaster tycoon.

[notaword]

I love how much of the b footage is from all of the truly awful games he's been subjected to

[razielonex]

Sandbox games are a great enjoyment for solo players and groups of friends. But once you bring more people in it, there is a greater chance that some of them are plainly a-holes. A MMO Sandbox game, giving players the power to influence the gaming world, would be destined to be abused by people. Plus, with housing, we already have a sandbox inside a theme park, one that isn't intrusive to other players and yet delivers a lot of freedom and creativity. So I would always prefair a theme park over a sandbox, unless a developer manages to create a sandbox MMO that doesn't end in potential frustration through other players. But that has yet to come.

[XiLock_Alotx]

I can’t stress this enough…you 100% remind me of Professor Tolarian in your video presentation. I love it. Still very unique tho! This is massive praise in my opinion

[BubbleoniaRising]

Now all I want is to to play an MMO that puts the ghosts from the haunted house in the bumper cars and run the bumper cars through a maze of roller coasters. Thanks, Josh.

[Jandau]

The problem with Sandboxes is that most of the time "sandbox" simply means "we didn't have money to make actual content", so you get a game that isn't mechanically much deeper than a theme park, and simply has nothing for players to do. The only sandbox with the level of work put into it equivalent to a decent theme park that comes to mind is EVE...

[LoganFreund]

I'm all about that finely crafted and tightly tuned theme park life!

[SkillGame]

I've always liked the idea of sandbox MMOs but when I play them I eventually just want to ride some good old-fashioned roller coasters.

[samual_not_samuel]

I remember thinking a sandbox style MMO where players could build their own bases and go to war with each other would be so cool. Then you actually look at games like that and it is an abominable mess. A vast boring unchanging landscape, populated with bizarre impossible structures. The problem is players care more about optimization than aesthetic or immersion.

If they want to stack five overlapping walls on top of one another, they'll do it.
If they want to maximize their iron output by filling one room with 50 furnaces, they'll do it.
If they want their entire fortress to be suspended in the air on one set of stairs, they'll do it.

The problem is even if you try to keep your own design immersive and aesthetically pleasing this above behavior often becomes the meta.

If you don't stack five overlapping walls, enjoy seeing them get torn down five times as fast.
If you don't fill a room with 50 furnaces, have fun waiting forever for your ore to smelt.
If you don't want to build a physics breaking air base, well I hope your easily accessible ground base enjoys getting invaded.