Escaping the NXIVM Cult - Sarah Edmondson & Nippy Ames - Mormon Stories 1507

Sarah Edmondson and Nippy Ames are our guests for this epic Mormon Stories interview where we discuss their escape from the NXIVM cult. We discuss the similarities between NXIVM leader Keith Raniere and Joseph Smith, the secret societies that existed within the cult, and the tipping point that forced Sarah and Nippy to become a united front to take Keith down. We hope you’ll resonate with Sarah and Nippy’s fascinating and gripping story!

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Show notes and links:
A Little Bit Culty podcast:

The Vow on HBO:

Scarred: The True Story of How I Escaped NXIVM, the Cult That Bound My Life:

Don't Call it a Cult: The Shocking Story of Keith Raniere and the Women of NXIVM:

Under the Banner of Heaven: A Story of Violent Faith:

Holy Hell film:

Wild Wild Country:

Recovering Agency: Lifting the Veil of Mormon Mind Control:

Time codes:
00:00 Intro
3:30 Similarities between Keith Raniere and Joseph Smith
9:00 Sarah’s background
18:10 Nippy’s background
29:30 Overview of Keith’s Raniere’s life
36:20 Keith’s IQ, women, and strategy
41:10 Keith’s “shifters strategy”, narcissism, thought experiment
43:35 Shame is key to the business model, life issue plan
1:02:20 Controlling behavior and BITE model
1:20:15 The inner circle, collecting collateral, blackmail nude photos
1:30:25 New collateral, Keith trying to bed Sarah, sexual pyramid sceme
1:35:00 Sarah’s branding and cult initiations
1:40:00 Hiding the branding from Nippy
2:01:10 Being a defector, taking down Keith
2:25:20 Helping our kids avoid cults, A Little Bit Culty podcast
2:40:00 How to support Sarah and Nippy

#MormonStories #NXIUM #Cults #LDS #Mormon #PostMormon #ExMormon #MormonStories #Religion #Education

[Dnamehere]

“When we recover loudly, we keep others from dying quietly” ~Sarah and Nippy. LOVE!!!

[scottstringhamfacilitiesas]

My guess is if the women of Joseph Smiths time could be interviewed they would tell much the same story of coercion, manipulation, justification, sexual impropriety, emotional and physical intimidation and grooming by Joseph and his inner circle, both men and women. But since it happened 180 years ago, none is left to interview and the few records and journals we do have have been in the possession of the church so can't be trusted to tell everything. We know the church has a history of hiding, destroying and editing its own history to whitewash it. The stuff we do have is damning enough, just think about the stuff the church won't let come to light.

[abracadanielle]

I’m only about 50 minutes in but I just had an aha moment. I never considered we evolved to feel dissatisfied so we didn’t die. As humans, we HAVE to feel uncomfortable in order to survive so that feeling isn’t me not being good enough, unhappy, or whatever lies I tell myself. I’m SUPPOSED to feel that way. That’s beautiful.

[karenf]

These two are marriage goals. Such a great team and power couple. You can sense the mutual admiration and respect. Never undermining each other, always building each other up and building on what the other is saying. So wonderful and refreshing to see. They have been through hell together and came out stronger than ever.

[zzRAMC]

Ive watched so many of these cult shows and have always wondered how people get hood winked into these cults.

Its just dawned on me, im not religiously vulnerable, but i could have easily been hood winked into this type of cult because we all want to learn new skills, develop and grow.

[TruthD]

“High demand organizations do not encourage emotional intimacy in marriages because they want you married to the organization, not to each other.”

[jameswalberg]

This is an inspiring and intense story. I almost didn't listen because of the weirdness of the NXIVM cult. The last few minutes summarize the lessons for ex-Mormons as well as non-Mormons "When we recover loudly, we keep others from dying quietly".

[tiffany.Elizabeth.]

I seriously teared up soooo much during this. You two are such brilliant, emotionally intelligent and beautiful people.

[loriford]

A quote I try to live by is this, "keep an open mind to everything but attach yourself to nothing". Because we are learning everyday, and move in and out of theories or ideas that resonate with us, we have to leave room to move on or develop different or new philosophies. If we get "stuck" we will surely drown and limit the experience of our souls journey. Something I have learned, is we are what we are seeking, a journey to rejoin our higher self and be a part of the collective or the universe. Drops of water that desire to return to the ocean we all came from, once our story or play has ended. 💫❤💫❤💫❤

[jbcivic]

Sarah and Nippy are amazing! I loved this podcast. It always amazes me how there are such parallels between Mormonism and other cults/high demand religions but its hard to see until the rose glasses are gone. Sarah - write that book!

[pieshmoo]

Loved her on the NXIVM documentary, can't wait! Best wishes for healing to her and her husband

[lynnj]

I have never seen this couple, but I am super loving this "hippy nerd marries corporate jock, then they take down evil empire and live happily ever after vibes." It's probably just cause she chose glasses. Anyway, good job toppling the evil empire!

[brighidclaire]

These two are courageous. I admire them. Recovering from this kind of abuse leading to mental and spiritual injury is difficult. That goodness they have each other as well as support from others. They are doing an adorable service to others with their choice to go public as they heal. I thank them.

[bricarma]

These two are so cool and FUNNY :) Thanks for bringing them on. I love how comfortable each of you are in the episode.

[donnellallan]

This was helpful to this ex-Mormon! Thank you so much to all of those involved.

[jonbaker]

I've said it a thousand times. The difference between a religion and a cult is that a cult ALWAYS has strings attached. It mimics spirituality in order to gain resources of some sort. Genuine religions are actually quite good for people imo. Lots of folks crave true spirituality. An example of a debatable "religion" as I've defined it would be Buddhism. Buddha didn't want money or resources unless you offered them. He never asked. His whole goal was to teach people why they were miserable and how they could escape the traps laid out by the world, but with no strings attached. He wanted enlightenment and freedom. No strings attached whatsoever. That would be a true religion.

[lorianabanana]

I love when Nippy addressed the 'How did this happen' (aka how did you let Rainere do this) with 'WE happened to HIM'. Yes you did!!

Rainere never should've been so brazen as to brand and abuse not just famous people but very hard working, smart, determined people. But as someone who has been in recovery for years I have a theory. Keith was an addict. He was addicted to power and sex specifically. And addicts always start small but get more and more brazen. The alcoholic starts drinking on weekends, then weeknights, then is driving drunk before finally being drunk 24/7 and finally falling apart and ending up in jail.

Keith started smaller with young girls or women who were in his harem- women who were easier to control. But then he started getting bolder, going after people like Allison Mack or India Oxenburg- powerful women but they were still under his thrall. Finally he got really bold and thought the collaterol would protect him. I think he really thought that he could control not just the women but all the men around him. Sooner or later he would've gone after not just Sarah but probably other married women and even Bonnie- his BFF's wife.

He just had gotten away with it for so long and he had such a big ego that he really thought he was safe. When I was at the worst of my addiction it was super obvious but I thought I was so clever because I had honestly gotten away with it for years, why would anyone notice now? Only they DID because I wasn't being careful at all anymore. Same thing with Rainere, he's just an addict whose addiction took over his life.

But ya he f^cked with the wrong people!!! I'm so proud that he was taken down by not just his own hubris but by the very people he was stupid enough to think he could control. He KNEW that these were incredibly smart, talented, hardworking people who weren't afraid of cameras. He should've known but he was so deep in his ego and addiction that he never saw it coming. Good.

[rainajones]

My mother was a single mom raising us in a rural area. She was brave enough to demand to be excommunicated when she finally, after temple work and living the doctrine to the "T", decided it wasn't right for her. I am not sure why she left. She didn't leave loudly. But she was brave enough to accept nothing less than an excommunication, despite other advise and options. Maybe people can leave loudly when they have a spouse or others to leave with. My mother left alone. She was a convert, years prior. Maybe that helped. But she did a brave thing alone.

[jenniferburns]

Well I'm glad I set myself strait. During this entire episode, I thought Sarah was going to speak at a THRIVE / Le-vel (multi-level marketing scheme) event. I was under the impression that Carah sold products for the company and was a top-tier leader. During the entire episode, I was banging my head against the wall thinking the hosts and guests were all drawing ties between NXIVM and Mormonism, yet not seeing the similarities between the two and multi-level marketing schemes. As you may be aware, these "businesses" operate in ways so similar to faith based groups and cults and they tragically plague the Mormon community. Now that I know "your" Thrive and "their" Thrive are totally different, I'd love to hear a podcast about the link between MLMs and the Mormon community. And I'm super glad to respect you all again. I was sad during the two hours that I lost it.

[casandrabullock]

I love Nippy, Sarah, Mark, and Bonnie! Bonnie was so brave to leave without singing anything! Ranerie always said, "women will change the world". He was right about that!🙏🏻💜