Is Jordan Peterson Correct About Lobster Hierarchies? (from Livestream #43)

Clip taken from DarkHorse Podcast Livestream #43 (originally streamed live on September 05, 2020):

Q&A:

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[bizkid]

So what you're saying was an oppressive lobster that was part of the lobster patriacrchy?

[Appleblade]

If you think equity is better than hierarchy, then you have placed equity above hierarchy in your own hierarchy.

[Milanvaneijk]

YES! More of this, guys! Besides all the cultural and political stuff (which I am grateful for, it shows great courage). This is the actual reason I started following you guys! Much love from Amsterdam.

[MarcusC]

Who else tried hitting themselves in the eye?

[TheShootist]

This channel may be the salvation of liberalism

[mnislasher]

if peterson knew that when you give octopus's mdma, they hug eachother, and explained that as part of his general point as well, people would probably understand it easier. i suppose he wasn't clear enough for some people that the purpose in pointing these things out is to remove the naivete that many people, mostly younger, have about the very conception they hold of what hierarchies are and what they do. that you can't just discard something that has that old of a biological history. it'd be like trying to mandate that nobody have their amygdala triggered into an over the top response leading to them feeling offended and hurt emotionally. impossible and bound to lead to all sorts of human stupidity. people need the cognitive tools first. they don't just spontaneously self arise from good intentions.

[matornot]

To answer the social media question, I think Peterson would talk about how our serotonin/cortisol production correlates to our perception of our place in the dominance hierarchy. If we are constantly comparing ourselves to people who appear more attractive, popular, and interesting than us, then it makes sense that we would automatically perceive ourselves as being lower in the dominance hierarchy, and would in turn produce more cortisol and less testosterone.

In other words, there is a measurable effect on the chemicals that control happiness when you perceive others as being "better" than you. Spend less time on social media, and you will literally be happier.

[laskyam]

I’m definitely interested in a more in-depth exploration of the topics of emotional and behavioral evolution from the neurotransmitter perspective. I believe Panksepp has some interesting work on that.

[cristinalacoste]

I thought that the only point Dr. Peterson was trying to make was that most animals create hierarchies and that the tendency is so old and so prevalent amongst life forms that it will probably always exist regardless of how we try to eradicate it.

[patgibsonguitar]

I am the Eggman, I am the Lobster
I am the Walrus. Goo-goo-ka-choo.

[pebblebrookbooks]

Yes, waiter! I will take that lobster right there in the thumbnail - the one Jordan Peterson says is highest in the social hierarchy.

[real]

Love these clips you’ve started. Will help your channel to grow.

[martinjohnson]

Peterson's argument is not based only on chemical reactions, it is based first on observing the behavior in today's lobsters, which shows dominance hierarchies that correlate to victory or defeat in combat leading to serotonin levels. Unless you can argue that for some unknown reason and in some unknown way lobsters reversed the relationships over time, you are left with ancient lobsters acting out hierarchies driven by serotonin leves which tracks pretty well with what we see in mammals, apes, humans.

[shatner]

I was watching Messi, the cougar, playing with some crayfish, then this Jordan shows up.
“...so what you're saying is you can pronounce it cray, or craw...?”

[jer]

I feel like Peterson's point was far simpler than people want to make it out to Which is that you can't just dismantle hierarchies, as even the mechanisms in our brain are constantly sorting our place in various hierarchies. And this type of mechanism even exists in effing lobsters. That it. No need to get all technical about the specific way that lobster brain chemistry functions compared to humans.

[tjo]

I am a simple man. I see Jordan Peterson in the title, i click the video.

[danieljohnson]

Histamine is an interesting neurotransmitter. It's associated with allergies, but in the brain it's about being awake. Antihistamines that cross the blood brain barrier are hallucinogenic. Same neurotransmitter, very different uses. Serotonin is the main neurotransmitter used by the gut, which essentially had a mind of it's own that presumably thinks in a different way than the brain.

[gibsonflyingv]

An example of when Brett Weinstein was still sane and not a crank.

[billblond]

You should look at the work of Jean Twenge on the effects of social media on self harm and mental illness among adolescent girls.

[sirrathersplendid]

Lobsters 🦞, cats 🐱monkeys... 🙉, what’s the difference? It’s the general principle of hierarchies in the animal kingdom that counts.