The Psychology Behind 'Nice Guys Finish Last' | Keith Campbell | EP 480

Dr. Jordan B. Peterson sits down with author, researcher, and professor of psychology at the University of Georgia, Dr. Keith Campbell. They delve deep into the weeds of narcissism, exposing the “good guy” fallacy; why alpha males attract more women; the axis of introversion, extroversion, and neuroticism as it applies to personality disorders; and the obsession with self-esteem which only fosters misery.

W. Keith Campbell, Ph.D., professor of psychology at the University of Georgia, is the author of more than 200 scientific papers and several books, including “The New Science of Narcissism” and “Professor OCEAN: A small tale of personality’s Big Five.” His work on personality has appeared across print media and he has made numerous media appearances, from the “Today Show” to the “Joe Rogan Experience.” He wrote the popular TED-Ed lesson on narcissism and writes a Substack called “Explorations in Personality.” He holds a BA from the University of California at Berkeley, a Ph.D. from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, and did his postdoctoral work at Case Western Reserve University. He lives in Athens, Georgia, with his wife and daughters.

This episode was recorded on September 4th, 2024

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(0:00) Coming up
(0:24) Intro
(4:04) Social personality psychology: narcissism and the self
(12:33) Psychopathology and emotional regulation: short-term vs. long-term
(18:10) Reputation: dominance vs. prestige, Frans de Waal
(21:23) The use of mimicry by narcissists to ascend the hierarchy
(23:37) The short-term reality of alpha positioning
(25:52) How the hierarchy crumbles — and how to stabilize it
(29:35) “Basking in reflected glory”
(34:24) How extroversion and introversion apply to narcissism
(37:08) Cortical maturation and prolonged infancy
(43:13) Andrew Tate: Are caricatured role models necessary?
(47:40) Socialization in male groups
(49:25) The sexual revolution has encouraged Dark- Tetrad short-term mating strategies
(58:53) Almost all losers will attempt to pass themselves off as “nice guys”
(1:02:53) Social media creates chaos — psychopaths like chaos
(1:08:42) Behavior regulation worsens with anonymity
(1:10:35) Ego built the internet, attention-seeking narcissism steers it
(1:11:42) If you ran a classroom by the rules of the internet…
(1:15:11) Social media is about the moment, “it has no goal”
(1:16:51) 30k students have enrolled in Peterson Academy
(1:28:45) The two types of narcissism: grandiose and vulnerable
(1:30:37) The fundamental axis of narcissism: neuroticism and introversion/extroversion
(1:32:41) Personality disorders come from extreme and inflexible narcissism
(1:34:32) The four key traits to look out for
(1:38:03) Self-esteem is fostering “fragile narcissism”

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[JordanBPeterson]

Keith Campbell’s course an “Intro to Psychology” and his upcoming course on Narcissim, as well as my courses, are available at petersonacademy.com

[abishaicampbell]

A “nice guy” is someone who is afraid of conflict. He is afraid that conflict will lead to judgment and judgment will put his fragile ego at risk of being hurt. He is unwilling to accept that he might not be as good of a person as he thinks he is because his sense of self worth is derived from appearing to be a “good person” to others. He values appearing good more than being honest. A nice guy is desperate for validation and will do almost anything to get it. Without real principles, he changes his opinions, values, and convictions depending on the other person. He puts far too much weight on people’s opinion of him because he doesn’t have a good opinion of himself. His low self worth can be traced back to a lack of discipline and character in his personal life. His lack of integrity leads to distrust in himself and a man who cannot trust himself to do the right thing will always look to others for validation. He hides himself and presents a false face to the world because he hates himself and fears the world will hate him too. And maybe it will. But rather than working on his flaws and shortcomings he avoids them to protect his ego and convinces himself that the world needs to change, not him. And that if everyone wasn’t so terrible, they’d recognize and appreciate him for the amazing person he believes he is. These are just some of the things I saw in myself when I was at my lowest point.

[TrollMan]

Im 23, i live alone, constantly stressed, my room is filthy, im in misery and my life is in shambles. Ive been isolating myself for 2 years and dont leave my house for weeks at a time. When i hear people like Jordan Peterson and Andrew Huberman speak it gives me hope that maybe one day i will understand myself enough to be able to live a life thats worth living. Keep doing what your doing Mr. Peterson, I cant thank you enough.

Thank you everyone for your advice, it really helps more than you think.

[bluemm]

I grew up with a father who was very weak and selfish. He came and went a few times in my life and he taught me very little. This made me a nice guy and a very weak character which has made life tougher than it needed to be. Thankfully God gave me a wonderful wife (when I was 38) and every year has been better since. Now in my 50's with two sons, trying my best to turn them into men.

[msicy]

Real nice guys who stand up for truth and value are a treasure. However, they are rare and they are typically shunned and isolated by society at large

[jonlannister]

Narcissism is pretty extraordinary.

I wasn't even surprised when my mother responded to my suicide attempt by worrying about how it would make her look that one of her kids tried suicide. (4 out of 6 of her kids attempted suicide, oddly enough.)

[camcma]

"Is he nice or is he just weak?" 😮 Wish I had heard this conversation when I started dating

[MichaelGillespie-MG]

In the 50's my Dad worked a modest job, Mom stayed at home and raised the kids, and they lived a nice middle class lifestyle including owning a home. Nowadays both I and my partner works and can barely afford to make ends meet. Soon the kids and family dog will need to work to keep this household going. It's the destruction of the American dream right before our eyes.

[Bettis]

I'd like to offer some constructive criticism of the manner in which you conduct your interviews. As a layman, with no experience in media, but just as a fan and enjoyer of interviews. Yours, in particular. I'm going to be rather blunt, but I mean no offense.

Like I said JP, I'm fan of your work, fan of your approach- but for god's sake, let the man speak! I really wanted to hear what he had to say, but out of the hour and 45 interview, he probably only spoke for like 10 total minutes. It was mostly just you posing questions and pontificating, and him agreeing, with barely any back and forth at all.

I know you have a lot to say, but I feel like as time has gone on, less and less of the focus of these interviews have been on the individual sitting across, and more of what their presence represents. As if they're presence is only the impetus for the conversation, and what they have to say is secondary.

Not all the time, but this video seems to me, to be one of the 'prime offenders' so to speak.

As a viewer, I'd really like to see some more back and forth between you, and your guests. More of a focus on them, with their work, novel contributions to their field and opinions.

Anyway, all the best. -A fan

[RobynAboud]

I don’t have the words for how I feel about Jordan Peterson. Such a special human being. His kids are so lucky to have him as a father and his wife, to have him as a life partner. He’s made such a difference in my life, listening to him speak is such a comfort to me. His sharing and intelligence is a total blessing.

[joshparker]

There's a difference between being "nice" and being "good". A lot of people think they are synonymous. They are not. A lot of sociopaths and evil people are "nice".

[micahwise]

I once had my HR department tell me “Nice guys finish last” when I suggested we shouldn’t fire our best employee right before Christmas simply to raise our bottom line. Don’t be a push over but you should absolutely be kind in this world. When it’s time to show your teeth make sure they never forget it, otherwise, be kind.

[joelogan]

For anyone who knows me and knows what I have endured, I just want to acknowledge my own convictions on this subject, and I am grateful to hear it reinforced by educated professionals. Thank you! I will use this to help me let go of the past and learn from it, so that it will never happen again.

[KwasaGenesis]

Let me clean my room as I listen to this

[Kinghassz]

If your a nice guy/codependent then I recommend looking into ‘narcissistic abuse and codependency’. This changed my life, for the better.

[dominiquecharriere]

After having been a bad guy for years (except at work), I became a nice guy (once I got 50+ and there was less pressure on my wife and I). It's so much better to be a nice guy than a bad one!

[stephaniesimmons]

Listening to this, JP has said a few things that were almost verbatim what my husband and I have been saying about a narcissistic family member. It's incredibly validating to know I'm not just being defensive with this person, but that I'm seeing the situation for what it is.

[JerryMetal]

I think 'Nice guys' is a confusing term. I think 'Men who pander to your every want and need' is a more accurate description. Simps!

[HoradrimBR]

"Nice" is a word that is not being used as it was 30 years ago, like "hate"...

[theg-men]

Oh man! Recovering from neck surgery today. I’ll finally be able to finish the whole video in one sitting haha!….title reminded me of one time Jordan said it’s very hard to tell the difference between nice and weak. I told both of my sons that. I want them to be kind and loving but never weak man. It’s a hard thing to balance. Excited to learn something new from this. Always learn at least one new thing. Love you Jordan