WLC Disagrees with Me?!?

Dr. Flowers comments on Dr. Craig's recent broadcast where he seems to disagree with some of the comments he made in his discussion with Eric Hernandez on Molinism.

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[EricHernandez]

“That guy is exactly right, Hernandez!” - My new ringtone.

[lionoffireministries]

BEST. SOTERIOLOGY CHANNEL. EVER.

Honesty Leighton, you do a truly amazing job!

[lionoffireministries]

It was decreed by God for me to post this….

Not really… I freely chose to 😃

[SuperCodemeister]

I am not a highly educated person. I only had one year of post secondary education in Business Management. I then found a summer job that asked me to stay on for another 6 months. I never went back to school. I ended up as a Manager of 12 employees in the Municipal Government. All this to say that I sometimes have to listen to your explanations twice. But I watch so many debates and videos by multiple Christians that I am becoming more familiar with terms and types of arguments. I think you are great at what you do. This channel is quickly becoming one of my favorites 😍

[jasontarmon]

It's not the concept that's complicated, it's the unfamiliar jargon that creates the illusion of complexity.

[BiblicalStudiesandReviews]

Wherever you land on this subject, Leighton comes across as much more humble than Dr. White, in my opinion.

[evanbirkby]

Dr. Flowers I find your explanations concerning Calvinism and James White's arguments to be clear and really accurate. I wanted to share with you an analogy I like to use. I start with the verse that no one comes to Jesus unless the Father draws him. My analogy is to imagine the person being drawn is in a wagon. The wagon has a brake and God has attached a rope to the wagon and is drawing it to salvation. The analogy could be God is leading a young boy to a wonderful tree house behind a barn. God is doing all the work. He is pulling the wagon and providing the energy to get to the destination. The rider however has a brake on the wagon and can use it to stop the wagon. God has allowed the rider to have the brake, and although he could have made a wagon with no brake, God chose to let the wagon have a brake. I think you can already see where I'm going with this. Although the rider can't see the destination, they can trust God to take them to this wonderful destination. They don't get credit for taking a free ride, but they do get rewarded for not resisting. The rider shows faith by not jumping out of the wagon or applying the brake. Others may throw the rider ropes (temptations and sin) and the rider might take hold of those and either take a rougher journey or use those other pulls on their wagon to resist their journey to salvation. James White and other Calvinists will try to deny their is a brake or other ropes or argue that God's pull is overwhelming. Scripture makes it clear that people can be stiff necked, oppose God's will or be drawn by the cares of this world, so I think this is a really good analogy that illustrates faith and why we don't get credit for our salvation but our faith is counted for righteousness.

[trailtrs]

Much of the trouble Ive had with Calvinism in arguments is that they stumble at the word “philosophy.”

It might be better to describe it as “reasoning.”

[mikaelarkanghel]

Maybe Dr Craig really is just occupied Leighton idk, perhaps an open invitation for him to come on to your show at an opportune time?

[beowulf.reborn]

*Brenton Stanfield: **_(in Leighton's side comments)_* "The topic of the dabate wasn’t “IF TRUE, which one addresses the problem of evil?” It was just: Which one best answers it. Questions of truth are relevant."


*Justin Brierlyy: **_(Introducing the Discussion):_* "We'll be asking which one of these views [Calvinism or Molinism], *_if true_*, best answers the Problem of Evil and Suffering in our world. That's our subject today."

[willrosch]

I Enjoy listening to you both and agree about the philosophy sometimes being difficult to grasp (coming from a seminary graduate). God bless you both.

[ComicsMando]

I’m sorry that Dr. Craig disagreed with your out of context clip, but he sounded so happy when Hernandez nailed his position!

[jesuschristsaves]

I find molinism a pretty simple concept but there some top shelf level language attached. Looking forward to learning more of this position because it does sound like something I believe, and it makes the most sense of scripture in harmonizing determinism and free will.

[markpatterson]

A distinction needs to be made between natural, physical 'evil' vs moral, spiritual evil. A hurricane is of the former but not the latter. Ill will, theft, murder, deceit, bad faith, etc are of the latter. Moral, spiritual evil cannot exist without free will or choice by the soul between moral good vs moral bad. There is no moral culpability without the free will to choose between that which is beneficial vs detrimental to one's own well-being, or that of the well-being of one's brother, or that of one's well-being with one's relationship with the Father.

Reestablishing good will in good faith with God cannot be done without some faith in Christ's perfectly good will he expressed with complete faith with his accomplished work. Our will isn't perfectly good. Our efforts even when done in good faith often fail to meet their ends due to our fallen, fallible, disabled, weak natures. Our post-fallen natures don't have the ability in themselves to accomplish the mountain moving Christ accomplished, but our natures have the ability and choice to will a mustard size seed of faith in Christ which the Father wants from us as a response to His grace extended to us through His Son.

If there were no moral free will left in our fallen souls, then there would be no moral culpability for the soul who does 'evil' (as it would not be moral evil) punishable by hell. The soul without moral free will would be no more morally evil or morally culpable than a hurricane when its wind blows. The spirit of the soul is a living wind with moral choices to freely make. One of those choices the soul has is good will faith in Christ who has the ability to bring us to God, reestablishing the soul's relationship with his Father.

[ericw]

Dr. Flowers,
I very much appreciate the work you do, so I hope you’ll take this as the constructive criticism it’s intended to be and not as any form of attack…

I’ve been a viewer of this channel for a while now and I think most of what you say is not only accurate, but fairly easy to understand. I have, however, heard a few instances of you saying things that weren’t presented quite as concisely as they probably could have been, making it necessary to give the things you were saying a bit of thought to completely understand the point you were making. In these clips, Dr. Craig really didn’t have the opportunity to put in that thought, so I think it’s understandable that he didn’t quite catch your intended meaning. Again, the last thing I want is for that to be interpreted as an attack of any sort, just how I see the situation. Thank you for all you do.

[euanthompson]

I decided to go see James White's podcast after this. That man can waffle about nothing in a way that astounds me. After finally getting through the waffle, I was disappointed to see that he did exactly what you said he would. It was a real shame.

[zekdom]

8:50, 11:15

12:07, 12:39, 14:37

14:58 - “divine determinism” vs “middle knowledge”

15:41, 16:24, 17:48 - another clip of Flowers’ response to White

22:07 - Eric Hernandez

[TheApologeticDog]

I watched a full Leighton Flowers video!

[Myrdden]

Does White ever debate the point of contention? Or debate honestly, for that matter?

[rapturebound]

It's very difficult for me to understand how Bill Craig does not believe that a genuine believer will never lose their salvation - in light of the fact that he believes in imputed or forensic justification of the believer ...simply can't wrap my head around it. Has anyone here in the comment section ever heard him stating that he believes that some true followers of Christ will actually forfeit their salvation? Please give me your thoughts. This is the first I've heard of it, and Dr. Flowers may not see my question in the comment section [since I posted it so late after the video was published]. I'm not questioning what Dr. Flowers said, just trying to find the source in order to show that it is Bill Craig's position to others who won't believe it to be true. God Bless!!