Why the Cleric in One D&D may be the ultimate one level dip

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Timestamps:
0:00 Intro
4:14 Design Goal - discourage 1 level dips
5:47 Why dip cleric?
11:29 One D&D Cleric dip
15:37 Why they failed hard
18:16 Proficiency bonus and class features
19:35 Not scaling first level features
21:42 Scaling with ability scores
22:11 The best solution
24:33 Wrap up

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[Nedoiko]

In OneD&D level 1 Bard gets proficiency bardic inspiration and Ranger gets the better favored enemy, so Abserd's twelve-way multiclass build isn't looking bad at all right now

[saeedrazavi]

I think a good way to implement it may be to have 1st level features not scale but then have a higher level feature go back and make the 1st level feature scale.

For example: at lv 1, you get the ability to use channel divinity 2/LR.

Then, at lv5, the cleric could get the ability "Font of Channel Divinity" or something that says "you may now use your channel divinity PB/LR"

For a single class cleric, it's effectively the same but for a 1 level dip, they miss out on the PB scaling

[The_Gnome_Chomskee]

I’m grateful to have expert optimizers like yourself on this new and sometimes harrowing journey.

[MrMagyar]

Yea, unless they change the Epic Boons into something actually epic, then level dips are going to be very prevalent. The epic boons at this stage are hot garbage for a capstone ability.

[donaldrohwer]

What amazes me is they go by class level for martial abilities like rage, extra attack, sneak attack, ki. For whatever reason, they don't for casters.

[ArticleNoun]

I’m really enjoying all the unearthed arcana discussions so by all means please continue to share all your thoughts but I do hope that you continue your “Tasha’s summoning builds” series. They were great.

[couver]

It's actually kinda sad when the Rogue sets the perfect example of what their intent is and it's thrown to the wayside anyway. Let's really think about it. Sneak Attack is based on half your rogue level, rounded up. Clerics can easily have the same benefit, as they are the go to for divine casters. So the easiest thing to do is keep the proficiency bonus uses per day, but make the healing be based off half your cleric level, rounded up. That's a far better way to discourage dips, as taking a whole action to heal only 1d8 at late levels isn't really worth it.

[andraszakupszki]

Abserd is slowly becoming the top pick...

In all seriousness I am surprised Psi Warrior is not more popular in multiclass builds

[baronaatista]

Why are you the only YouTuber that can actually be properly unbiased in their response to the playtest?
Keep up with the good work man. I hope the designers (and everyone responding to the playtest) are paying attention.

[Notsogoodguitarguy]

I think the main problem with multiclassing is that most features are front-loaded, and that the ones that aren't front-loaded tend to either suck or scale automatically. Case and point - hexblade's curse - extra damage scales with proficiency. Peace cleric - targets and uses scale with proficiency. New cleric's channel divinity - scales in power and in number of uses with Proficiency. The proficiency is a nice design choice when it comes to simplicity, but if they're married to the "Proficiency number times per day use" and scaling based on proficiency, then there's almost no way to prevent dips. If you wanna prevent dips, you actually gotta make people care about class levels. Make the power of the class baked into the class itself, and make dips give you less power and more versatility. Right now, dips give you both power and versatility, at usually a marginal cost.

Also, another problem with multiclassing is that, usually, it favors casters to martials. Martials gain very little from dips in terms of power or versatility, and dipping as a martial rarely solves any problem you have. Dipping as a spellcaster almost always solves at least one of your problems, if not multiple. In the same way that you "Don't wanna make a pact with an incomprehensible being", but only for 2 levels, then you go "nah, screw that, but I leave with the power still", I'd say it should be the same way with dipping a martial - your wizard doesn't suddenly become a master of arms and of armour just because he waved a sword for 5 days. And I find it really sad that they just decided to outright plug the biggest difference between the martials and casters - armour, with a level 1 feat which you don't even need to dip a martial to get.

(sorry for repeating some things that you said, but it's just very important that people understand where the problems are and that it's highly unlikely that, with these kinds of changes, they'd fix it. In fact, the obsession with scaling is gonna do the exact opposite)

[carlnielsen]

Wonderful as always. Insightful, balanced & thought provoking. Keep up the great work Chris.

[GG-bwqd]

Some form of scaling off class level is a great idea. I'd either scale it of 1/3 class level so it's about on par with proficiency bonus or redo the feature so it works out to similar numbers using class level at 1:1.

[windycitydoodler]

An additional option: Level 1 class features can open a 'basic' feature, that then has 'improved' options later in the class. So maybe the divine spark starts as limited use, but a few levels in you get 'improved divine spark' that then has a more generous use limit/scaling.
The same could go for ranger, where it could give you hunter's mark (with concentration) then a few levels in improves to no longer require concentration. In both cases the new player gets an option, the multiclass dip gets something, but it takes class investment to get the 'full' class feature.

[Gafizal]

You make a very good point...I mean dips are still good...but it's not like a Peace dip... though it is a LOT of healing...Also the Ranger dip continues to look juicy...Also a straight classed Wizard with Armor prof (new feat) at lvl 1, and the new War caster at lvl 4 would be pretty strong I'd think... I'm not sure this is better than perma-bless/guidance ...but I agree it does scale too well-- I think your solutions make sense

[DieinnereStimme]

I thought a lot about this...
And i think i got to a great solution:

At first Level you get "Feature" with 2 uses per long rest and 2 dice per use. And it doesn't scale on its own.
At 5th Level, you get "Improved Feature", wich says: now you can use "Feature" a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus per long rest and the number of dice per use equals your proficiency bonus as well.

Now a straight-classed Character doesn't see any difference. But you'd need 5-Levels in a class to use the Feature to it's full potential.

And you can give this to every class!

[Elonquin]

I posted that remark regarding divine spark in your first cleric review vid. Glad to see you noticed this as well.

[SybilantSquid]

I think it might still be good for the health of the game if they earn more power by following the class progression. By making first level features scale with proficiency, it makes a single level dip in a class still worthwhile, but when those features are enhanced further down the line by following the main class progression, then making such dips could be less optimal. For example, the Hunter subclass for Rangers enhances Hunter's mark by giving you more information about the target. A one level dip for Ranger won't give you that. Baseline Channel Divinity is powerful from a dipping standpoint, but if you want a specific Channel Divinity option, you'll need to invest levels in the class.

[MichaelStJohn-lrel]

I was shouted down for pointing this out. "It's not that powerful, " they said. You spelled out why it's too powerful better than I could. Using Proficiency Bonus for scaling should be limited to species, feats, and only rarely in subclasses.

[lostmessiah]

It's kind of hard to offer a "one size fits all" solution to this problem since we still haven't seen how other classes are going to handle first level features, but speaking solely on the OneD&D cleric I think it would be reasonable to say that the Channel Divinity can be used PB times per day, but that the number of dice (and perhaps the die size) scale with caster level. To simplify and unify things, which also seems to be a goal for them, you could add another die or step up a die size (or for some subclasses, maybe both) at 5th, 11th, and 17th level, to keep it on par with cantrip scaling.

Although I'm really hoping that they change cantrip scaling as well, it's never set right with me that you could take a feat as a variant human and be a level 20 fighter whose firebolt is just as effective as the 20th level Wizard's is.

[coffeetoaster]

What if they just made the feature start scaling at a certain Cleric level? You get the base feature at level one and then maybe after a few levels you get a feature that scales the level one feature.

Similar to how bardic inspiration recharges on short rests at later levels