Calvinistic Narcissism Examined | Doug Gustafson, Nick Kelly, Kevin Thompson

Doug, Nick and Kevin review an email about a Calvinistic pastor and discuss impacts, causes, and potential solutions.

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PLAYLISTS:
8 ‘A’s of Salvation” (pre-requisite salvation considerations before other inferences can be entertained)
“Christian Cognition” (learn about the things that affect data processing other than “the facts”)
“Full Stature Initiative” (follow presentations and group discussions of the Book of Acts)
“Acts 13:48” (videos that address this so-called “Calvinist proof text”)
“Calvinist Infiltration” (videos that address Calvinist infiltration into non-Calvinist churches)


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[johnnelson]

I’m in a street evangelism group we had to deal with Calvinism within the group till then I was totally ignorant of it, boy did I get a wake up call . It all started when the actual leader of the group told an atheist Christ only died for a select few. I confronted him and to cut a long story short the group split down the middle. I refused to stand with them citing two different gospels..

[timothyhodges]

@Doug: People don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care. A narcissist doesn't care about about anything but themselves. You know that. Appreciate your contributions! God bless you!

[sashatoya]

More people need to be watching this. This was excellent. Thank you all

[tannerfrancisco]

I didnt realize the 9Marks organization was so Calvinistic. I've read a couple books from them and didnt know anything more about them. But their website is full of articles training pastors on how to infiltrate and deceive churches to calvinism. It's insane!

[LedHead]

No work tomorrow + a late night cup of coffee + a 2 hour BTF stream = a perfect night for me. Granted, I might be a bit of a psychopath, but it is what it is. Excellent discussion, gentlemen. I'm glad you guys were able to flesh this topic out more.

I'm sorry for anyone stuck in a church like that. That sounds like the Sanhedrin, not like our sweet Jesus. Seems to be the case way too frequently these days. I wish I could give you the courage to leave, without a shred of anger, and the courage to not care what the church people think of you. That's easy for me to say, though, because I've been an outsider for so long.

I pray that God shows you all what to do. God bless you. WWJD? Would Jesus handle people like the men in this email do? I'm trying NOT to sound moralistic, but just factually.... based on scripture.... do we see Jesus treating people like this?

[janetdavis]

I saw a clip of a John McArthur sermon where he was going to explain election vs free will, and he actually told people to put away their notebooks and pens, to not try and reason the concept, because it couldn’t be done. Chalked it all up to mystery, said we could never figure it out.

[Baltic_Hammer]

I'm at the 1 hour mark. Every characteristic you guys have talked about is perfectly describing Jean Cauvin man in Geneva. The mirror concept especially connected because I've been saying for several years that Jean Cauvin created a belief system that was a mirror of his own dark twisted heart.
Add:> Around 01:02 talking about LOVE I was getting a picture of love as a glue that binds people together in relationships, family and community.
Being Calvinist means you never apologize for anything you say.
Being Calvinist means you're always right no matter how wrong you are..
Being Calvinist means you can perch on your white pillar, looking down on everyone and lecture them on their need to be humble and submissive....by your standards.
And tons more. But one thing that is totally absent in Calvinism is LOVE. It did not exist in Jean Cauvin's heart or enter his mind. Now....TORTURE....that was a cornerstone in Cauvin's watch.

[JulietManx]

These discussions are an absolute gold mine of information and growth resource. I’m so thankful
Similar problems where I am having been pulpit bullied because I dared to question….
We all need a Drill Bit Taylor to help us with the bullies 😂

[Richard_Rz]

I listened to this live and twice since then. Love you brothers.

[elrogers]

I love how Doug is petting his cat while on the livestream while discussing Narcissus. 😂😂😂
Really enjoyed the stream, though. Churches need to be aware of these things.

[release-joy]

Calvinism in essence - God doesn't love you enough to choose you.
Arminianism in essence - God doesn't love you enough to keep you.
Our definitions of grace drive our theology and how we treat each other. If the definition is "getting what you don't deserve, " then we will treat each other like they are underserving.

[robertajackson]

Wow Doug...I was just thinking of a support organization to do interventions...I like your idea!

[rareproducts]

I’m seeing a 5-alarm fire. This woman is so vulnerable to destruction on multiple fronts, and she has already shown her hand to a man who does not play fair. YouTube says this video is a month old, but I hope it’s not too late and she might read this sooner than later. Vulnerabilities:

Economically, not only does she work for this church but so does her mom, who is a widow. They get laid off, what does that do to this family? The fact that it will at very least distract her from any effort to throw off the spiritual abuser from the church is beside this point. She and her mom both need to find new income sources. Immediately - not *if* they are going to put up a fight.

Related to community and friendship, she’s been at this church for many years, which likely means her most important relationships are there. Her world is there. This guy has already excommunicated her in his mind by declaring her faith to be in question. People in the church believe him, and that’s why the one man went away burdened to repent of something. This pastor absolutely will use that trust as a weapon, we know, because he has already done it. The theft of someone’s social group is devastating, even if it were not combined with a deployed economic torpedo.

God can bring her through a much stronger believer. But if she can mitigate the destruction, it doesn’t need to be as painful as possible. Maybe her physical health might be spared a shock of this magnitude. Develop and deepen relationships with Christian neighbors and family members outside of this organization - even better, outside of any organization. Cookie and punch friendships common in churches are a ruse. They do not withstand a rocked boat.

After she has some economic and social continuity in place, if she can help it, that would be a more advantageous time to count the other costs of trying to right this particular wrong. My own experiences have led me to believe the churches are coming down in the storm anyway - Matthew 7 - but whether or not to try and save this one is up to her. It is likely to be a worldview changing experience.

My suggestion: Do not poke the bear. In fact, become very quiet until you get your feet onto firmer soil. Throughout, hang onto God for dear life.

Mrs. Rare Products

[paulwright]

Calvinism = self-centered, self-righteous narcissism.

[helenem]

It strikes me that the same callous disregard for the sufferings of others which is fundamental to the concept of God as the capricious megalomaniac of Calvinism is found in the Indian concept of reincarnation which has it that to interfere on behalf of the suffering is to impede the victim's journey to perfection. That evident works and fruits are indicators of the individual's process as he strives for perfection is a doctrine common to both is therefore no surprise. In the midst of this Jesus is portrayed as some incidental figure at worst or a great prophet at best, but His Godhead is rendered an irrelevancy, His agonies of the cross a mere gesture of His meekness in the face of opposition. My spirit writhes with anger and indignation at their maligning His character and rejecting His grace.

[naturematt]

Agree with your church implosion analogy. Action needs to be taken. I don't view it as causing division but exposing the division that's already there. The church will take one step back (because there's trouble in River City lol) in order to take 2 steps forward.

[sheilasmith]

Also, the elders will side with who they believe has the greatest power. So being a united, unbendable, unrelenting force is what your group must portray or you eill lose your church.

[Jammaster]

I've always said Calvinism is modernized Gnosticism. You have to be initiated into the higher level of secrets (the chief being that God rigged the game). I mean really, how stupid.

[djs]

Had a free hour.. just listened to this over again..

I think the angle of the conscious (subconscious) need for reflecting back is spot on for these types.. they need people to feed on.. and there choice of diet is control, in various forms..

I liked Nick's mention of the buzz words.. and Kevin's angle tgat they skip into moral statements..

I find the strangest one is when they start about Soverignty.. as if somehow them mentioning it automatically means you don't think God is alpha and omega, creator and top of the food chain 😂.. this really is kinda obvious, even a man who was born again yesterday and hasn't studied the word yet would be able to affirm this..

My own experience of dealing with narcs has been an interesting journey.. a common tactic I've noticed (especially when they're unsure if they could get in your face with their tantrums... coz you might punch their face 😂) is stone wallling.. or silent treatment.. not responding.. and rallying others against you...

Very challenging in a churchy environment, especially if the congregation are in self and vulnerable.. they'll be easily converted.. and those coming against the parasitic religious necromancer.. Will be demonized.. and gas lighting by questioning your faith etc etc.. how dare you question the soverign God..

It gets challenging with people who are fully signed up to systems of theology like catholicism or calvinism as they feel any disagreement with the theology is not persevering in the faith.. not contending for the faith and being a heretic etc etc.. so its no surprise the pastor in question here found others who believe his brand echo tunnel, to gain strength in numbers .. ultimately it's about winning.. and they prob feel they are serving God in there battle.. they're the david, against the goliath.. in their mind they are sacrificing themselves ( becoming the victim).. for christs sake.. it's, a very sad state of affairs as in reality they're more like a cartel in the effect they have on a community

I think it takes quite a dramatic event/s to come about in their lives for them to get out of this mind set.. (SELF/EGO) they have to come undone.. and then quite alot of therapy or help from whoever God sends to rescue them ❤ and even there after, I'd be very cautious about thinking they've genuinely changed & inviting them into my life.

[annemarieschulz]

My husbands home church is controlling & abusive. Their Bible study is just a sermon & anyone who disagrees on the leader’s interpretation is jumped on as wrong.
Their study on the woman at the well leader said first thing Jesus did is point out her sin. Someone said the first thing Jesus did is show love & care just speaking to her.
Leader said no Jesus pointed out her sin!
This church swaps church above family too. If my husband wants to do something with his family above doing something with the church he is putting family above God.
Family always loses sadly.