Trent Horn and Gavin Ortlund on Baptism

In this dialogue I talk with Trent Horn about baptism, especially looking at Baptist vs. Roman Catholic views on baptismal regeneration.

Truth Unites is a mixture of apologetics and theology, with an irenic focus.

Gavin Ortlund (PhD, Fuller Theological Seminary) serves as senior pastor of First Baptist Church of Ojai.

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PODCAST:

00:00 - Introduction
02:06 - Defining Terms
06:13 - Initial Clarifications
10:10 - 1) Did Baptism Save Cornelius?
18:08 - 2) Salvation Before Baptism?
42:41 - 3) Infant Damnation in Church History
55:24 - 4) Hebrews 10:22
59:24 - 5) Circumcision + Romans 2:29
1:07:37 - 6) The Concern of Formalism
1:20:15 - Future Dialogues and Debates

[Miatpi]

This might the best Protestant/Catholic dialogue I've seen. You both rock.

[declare]

I’m Catholic, but I admire Gavin, with his lucid and charitable demeanor, even though he disagrees with my beliefs. I can feel his sincerity, and his intent is not to put down people but to be balanced in his approach. I watch his videos because I know they will strengthen my own faith in my humble efforts to address his arguments and answer his questions. God bless him and dialogues like this.

[dj_telemundo]

As a staunch protestant who discusses theology with Roman Catholics very often. Trent Horn is the most charitable roman catholic ive seen. Great work both of you.

[davidC]

As someone that was Baptist for many years and has recently converted to Catholicism I see both sides and still have many questions.Thank you both for this respectful informative talk.

[joker]

this is the nicest Calvinist i’ve ever come across, my goodness

[wordandwater]

I love Trent Horn even though I’m a Protestant, I do admire Roman Catholics and I recently just started listening to you Mr. Gavin and I’m very impressed how knowledgeable you are with church history and your charitable demeanor with debates.

[ThetaMinistries]

I have such a love for Trent as a Protestant! He’s probably the most charitable Catholic apologist out there! God bless both Gavin and Trent.

[noahquernemoen]

Trent and Gavin are two of the most respectful and respectable teachers

[Athabrose]

As a confessional Lutheran these are so fun to watch. I tend to align with Trent on most of this but Gavin’s responses were definitely thought provoking and iron sharpening iron. Thanks Dr. Ortlund, Gods blessings during your break and to your family.

[ReasonandTheology]

Happy to see this discussion.

If we understand baptism to primarily be union with Christ per Romans 6:1-4, I have no problem saying Cornelius (and the theif on the cross) was baptized, though this baptism was apart from water. Ordinarily God uses water to bring about union with Christ but he is not limited by the sacraments and occasionally grants an extrasacramental baptism or union with Christ apart from water. The Council of Trent grants as much when it speaks of the necessity of the sacraments or the desire of them (which can be an implicit desire) for salvation. Hence we Catholics believe in baptism of desire and of blood and have noted this desire can be implicit.

Concerning causes, the meritorious cause is Christ and the instrumental cause is baptism (which is ordinarily by water but can be granted apart from water as God is not bound by the sacraments).

Concerning an awareness of the divinity of Christ for salvation, Catholicism recognizes a belief in the right doctrines of the church can be implicit rather than explicit, so if one is disposed to belief but has not yet become aware of ehat to believe, God reckons that as implicit faith which MAY suffice for salvation.

[Gio-ceob]

Uplifting to see two Christians coming together to see what we can say amen on. I pray one day we can be One Church again! May God bless both of these charitable men.

[FlexCathedrafromIG]

As always Trent never fails to deliver. One reason (among many) and many other Apologists that have helped me in my Christian journey and why I stay Catholic. God bless you Trent🙏🏼

[leviwilliams]

Reformed Presby here. Baptism saves 🔥🔥🔥🔥God loves and saves infants, as well ❤

God has saved us, will save us, and is saving us❤

[echomike]

I'm Catholic, and I watch videos that strengthen my faith but I also watch videos from the point of view of those who criticize our system of belief to have a better perspective on every issue. Gavin's videos really help a lot.

[ShirleyAnnPetrillo-ojsc]

What’s most excellent is when Dr teaches. Such an examplary, trustworthy Truth Teller !
Dr Gavin Ortlund, you’re a gem.

[danielcarriere]

1:19:00 I think it is also important to affirm that every Easter, Catholics reaffirm our baptism and our baptismal promises.

[wierdpocket]

I think the core theological difference here actually has to do with *how* God acts. Gavin's position seems totally sensible - if you *see* a change, there probably is a change. But I think the Catholic position here is much more true to who God is, especially in relation to creatures. The process of salvation is not something that can be quantified by any amount or quality of behavior, simply because we are not able to know and search hearts as God. Trent's wariness to ascribe a change in behavior to regeneration (instead of a million other psychological, social, etc. factors) is completely merited, even if that change in behavior is *radical*. That's because, again, only God searches and knows the heart, and his work (and presence) is often *invisible*.  

I don't think for a second this means we can't "judge" behavior - but again, that judgement is reserved for behavior, not for gauging the amount of grace God has given to a particular individual. If you think about it, the idea that we can quantify grace using our own standards is kind of absurd - which is *exactly* why sacraments are *given* to us—as revelation—as an objective measure of grace conferred for specific occasions. Baptism doesn't offer us some kind of amorphous "change in behavior", but instead it gives us, by faith, an assurance of salvation—regardless of our inner psychological state. One doesn't have to arise from the waters *feeling* any particular thing (our feelings are fickle and wounded by sin), we arise *knowing* we have died and been brought to life *because God says so*.

I think this distinction really gets at the heart of Protestantism vs. Catholicism. Protestantism puts a lot of value and meaning on the interior psychological state of the *individual* - how he *feels* in relation to the world around him. And, to be clear, it's not as though those feelings and dispositions don't matter, but the Catholic would simply say that our salvation is not something that we can quantify by any measure of our own—even if it's something very close to us, like our own psychology. Instead, the Catholic affirms that salvation comes from the hand of God, *revealed to us* through *objective signs* so that our assurance can be tied to something outside of our own inward "sense".

[jamisonharris]

I align with my brother Baptist pastor. Great conversation Trent.

[tayh.]

As the Baptist raised daughter of a mother who converted as a young woman after being raised Catholic, this was really fascinating. My mom has a lot of resentment towards Catholicism due to feeling like she was only taught how to go through the motions and not given a living faith. As I've investigated as an adult, I've found there's more nuance on either side than I'd previously thought.

[anthonym.]

Great discussion. As a former catholic, I appreciated both sides and it has reaffirmed my belief about believers baptism. God bless.