Was St. Augustine PROTESTANT? w/ Gavin Ortlund @TruthUnites and Trent Horn @TheCounselofTrent

Gavin and Trent answer a question about if Catholics are more, less, or the same judges unto themselves regarding matters of Doctrine.



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[bulletproofcatholic]

Lets not discount St Augustine's view of Scripture was before Bible Canonization. St Augustine was the Bishop of Hippo who help[ed decide what books went into the Bible. Placing Sola Scripture as a belief by St Augustine is putting the cart before the wagon. Its a historical impossibility that he believed in Sola Scriptura.

[NIA-]

As a Lutheran moving into Catholicism, when a Protestant says "the church" it doesn't mean the same thing that Catholics mean. Protestants had to redefine the meaning of the church from Calvin forward in order to separate itself from Rome. I remember reading the Nicene Creed in the Lutheran Church and the phrase "holy Catholic church" is changed to "holy Christian church." Two things that are different are not the same.

[hugomunoz]

Read "On Grace and Free Choice of the Will"... St Augustine is pretty clear on where he stands. Definitely Catholic and erroneously misquoted by many a Protestants

[roberthunter]

You'd have to be an alcoholic to think that Augustine was a protestant.

[CPATuttle]

Augustine wrote about Purgatory. What church do you think he was a part of?

[timboslice]

Here's augustine on infant baptism. I don't see how this sounds like a sola scriptura protestant at all. In fact I think it shows he believed in a rudimentary infallibility doctrine.

"But the custom, which is opposed to Cyprian, may be supposed to have had its origin in apostolic tradition, just as there are many things which are observed by the whole Church, and therefore are fairly held to have been enjoined by the apostles, which yet are not mentioned in their writings."

"if any one seek for divine authority in this matter, though what is held by the whole Church, and that not as instituted by Councils, but as a matter of invariable custom, is rightly held to have been handed down by apostolical authority, still we can form a true conjecture of the value of the sacrament of baptism in the case of infants"

[TheRoark]

This title is awful haha, neither person says Augustine was Protestant, Gavin is just saying that he affirmed sola scriptura. No matter what tradition you’re a part of you will disagree with pretty much every church father on some thing or another, so this shouldn’t be a big deal.

[bman]

“The custom … may be supposed to have it’s origin in Apostolic Tradition, just as there are many things which are observed by the WHOLE CHURCH, and therefore are fairly held to have been ENJOINED BY THE APOSTLES, which are not mentioned in their writings” -St. Augustine, Bishop of Hippo Regius.
Doesn’t sound like a Baptist to me.

[franciscoguzman]

Saint augustine was a papist look at his work. Also he believed in purgatory in his work on the city of god. Also praying to the saints. He believed in the real presence of the Eucharist etc. His work on nature and grace he talks about Mary’s entireless sinlessness.

[TheRoark]

Another point that should be noted is that st. Augustine says that he wouldn't believe the scriptures if not for the authority of the church, which is unrelated to his position that the scriptures alone are infallible. Also, Augustine had access to the scriptures even before there was an infallible declaration of the bible's contents.

[SaintCharbelMiracleworker]

Augustine was an ordained Bishop of the Catholic Church. Just because Protestants have used his writings for their nonsensical arguments doesn't mean he was Protestant.

[billpletikapich]

If there were a definition for Sola Scriptura, the Christian authors and book stores would go out of business.

[rebn]

St Augustine was the Catholic Bishop of Hippo.

[Jessica-rbci]

Can we talk about how well Thursday's suit fits? Looks fantastic

[pepehaydn]

The Baptist Pastor is utterly wrong here: has he ever Read Augustine?

One May say that Saint Augustine was wrong in some things, but no one can Deny that he tried to find the foundations of his opinions Not only in Scripture but particularly in conformity with Church practice and Tradition.
His doctrine of predestination May be a novelty and a heresy, YES, but PLEASE Read the last chapters of De dono perseversntiae, or the whole book: he does Not rely his exégesis in an absolute Sense, he cites Cyprian, Ambrose, Nacianzenus and the liturgical practice of the Church specially, al in favor of his opinions.

[pepehaydn]

I do Not believe that Augustin was neither clear nor honest: he was pelagian against manichees, catholic against donatist, manichee against pelagians, Calvinist against demo-pelagians... You can choose whatever you want from him, all incoherent and all Said in the Heat of Disputes.

[fantasia]

Gavin never cites when Augustine said he believes Scripture because the Catholic Church said so.

[premodernprejudices]

No, but like Protestants, he was a heretic.

[Steinstra-vjwl]

I was raised a Catholic, until…I actually seriously started to read the Bible. We can read in Scriptures that Lord Jesus commanded the Apostles to first preach the Gospel to the Jews, and after also to the Heathen or Gentiles (but never vise versa!). I found out in Scriptures who of the Apostles for the first time went to Rome .. and it wasn't Peter. In the Book of Acts it says in Chapter 28 the following: 16 "And when we came to Rome, the Centurion delivered the Prisoners to the Captain of the Guard: but Paul was allowed to live in a house, by himself, with a Roman Soldier that kept him. 17 And it came to pass, that after three days Paul called the Chief of the there living Jews together: and when they came together, Paul said to them: "Men and Brethren, though I have committed nothing against our people, our customs, or against our fathers, yet was I delivered prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans 18 who, when they had examined me, would have let me go, because there was no cause of guild in me. 19 But when the Jews spoke against that verdict, I was constrained to appeal unto Caesar; not that I had made any accusations against my Nation. 20 For this Hope (the Gospel of Jesus Christ) therefore I have called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because for the Hope of Israel I am bound with these chains. 21 The Chief of the Jews said to Paul: "We neither received letters out of Judaea concerning you, neither any of the Brethren that came from there shewed or spoke any harm of you. 22 But we desire to hear of you what you think: for concerning this sect, we know that it is spoken against everywhere". The Roman Catholic Church claims that it was Peter who went to Rome first to preach the Gospel there first and that it was Peter who founded the Church there. Question: who lies? God, ... or the Roman Catholic Church ? And what about the Letter in the Bible from Paul to the Congregation of Galatians where it says this in Chapter 2? From verse 7 we read the following: 7 "But on the contrary, when they saw that the Gospel of the Uncircumcision (Gentiles) was committed unto me, as the Gospel of the Circumcision (Jews) was unto Peter; 8 for He that gave Peter power effectively to the Apostleship of the circumcision (again: the Jews), the Same was Mighty in me toward the Gentiles. 9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the Grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we (that are Paul and Barnabas) should go unto the Heathen, and they unto the Circumcision. Again dear Catholics: who lies? Gods Word, or the Roman Catholic Church? Bible, the book of Acts, Chapter 5, verse 29 : Then Peter and the other Apostles answered and said: “We ought to obey GOD - rather than man” !!

Since the Roman Catholic 'church' claims to be well-read on scriptures, then please point me in the direction of where in the Bible it says to pray to a woman, or with a rosary (praying to May: "Hail Mary full of grace...), or to dead “saints.” Please show me where it says to call any mortal sinful man (the pope) your father. Please show me where the Bible says anything about purgatory, or paying indulgences (buying yourself into heaven - is God corrupt ?). Please show me where Mary was sinless. Why is it that Catholics worship Mary still as a virgin when Lord Jesus had half brothers and half sisters? Please show me where it says to confess your sins to a fellow sinful man so that he may forgive them? Show me the name pope in the Bible? Where does the Bible say the pope is the “vicar of Christ” on earth? Show me where it says that a preacher must be unmarried? It was the pagan ROMAN Emperor Constantine who was in fact the first “Pope” and he didn't allow for the common people to have Bible Scriptures...to keep believers ignorant, as the Catholic Church still does. Later pope’s started the ‘inquisition’ because the book printing machine was invented and people like William Tyndale could spread the Bible to the common people: he was burned to dead for that, and so were hundreds others who did the same and because they denounced the VALSE doctrines of Rome, and they were called heretics and witches by the Roman Catholic “church”- they were tortured, burned to dead - and murdered !!! GET OUT OF THIS FALSE CHURCH !!! The Roman Catholic “church” is a continuation of the old Roman PEAGAN Empire: it never went away as it disguised itself as a Christian Church. Read Revelation, Chapter 17: verse 7 and 8…please read, dear brothers and sisters.

[TruthHasSpoken]

Gavin needs to invite St Augustine to his Church to preach. That he was protestant, is as Sola Scriptura is: a man-made invention. That he was a protestant, is too, a imagination of the mind.

*On The Authority of the Church (sola scriptura? no way!)*

_“But when proper words make Scripture ambiguous, we must see in the first place that there is nothing wrong in our punctuation or pronunciation. Accordingly, if, when attention is given to the passage, it shall appear to be uncertain in what way it ought to be punctuated or pronounced, let the reader consult the rule of faith which he has gathered from the plainer passages of Scripture, _*_AND FROM THE AUTHORITY OF THE CHURCH, _*_ and of which I treated at sufficient length when I was speaking in the first book about things.” On Christian Doctrine, 3, 2:2 (A.D. 397)._

“The authority of our books [Scriptures], which is confirmed by agreement of so many nations, *supported by a succession of apostles, bishops, and councils, is against you.”* Reply to Faustus the Manichean, 13:5 (c. A.D. 400).

*On the Eucharist:* _“‘And was carried in His Own Hands:’ how ‘carried in His Own Hands’? Because when He commended His Own Body and Blood, He took into His Hands that which the faithful know; and in a manner carried Himself, when He said, ‘This is My Body.'” On the Psalms, 33:1, 10 (A.D. 392-418)_

*On Baptism (the Sacrament of Regeneration)* _“But the sacrament of baptism is undoubtedly the sacrament of regeneration: Wherefore, as the man who has never lived cannot die, and he who has never died cannot rise again, so he who has never been born cannot be born again. From which the conclusion arises, that no one who has not been born could possibly have been born again in his father. Born again, however, a man must be, after he has been born; because, ‘Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God’ Even an infant, therefore, must be imbued with the sacrament of regeneration, lest without it his would be an unhappy exit out of this life; and this baptism is not administered except for the remission of sins. And so much does Christ show us in this very passage; for when asked, How could such things be? He reminded His questioner of what Moses did when he lifted up the serpent. Inasmuch, then, as infants are by the sacrament of baptism conformed to the death of Christ, it must be admitted that they are also freed from the serpent’s poisonous bite, unless we wilfully wander from the rule of the Christian faith. This bite, however, they did not receive in their own actual life, but in him on whom the wound was primarily inflicted.”, On Forgiveness of sin and baptism, __43:27__ (A.D. 412)._

*On Baptism (how one is Born Again scripturally)* _“One generation and another generation; the generation by which we are made the faithful, and are born again by baptism; the generation by which we shall rise again from the dead, and shall live with the Angels for ever.” Augustine, Psalms, 135:11 (A.D. 433)._

*On Infant Baptism* _“It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated through the agency of another’s will when that infant is brought to Baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn…’Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit.’ The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was in one Adam.” To Boniface, Epistle 98:2 (A.D. 408)_