Internal Family Systems: Trauma, Wholeness, and Strengthening the Self | Dr. Richard Schwartz

Dr. Rick and I are joined by Dr. Richard Schwartz, creator of the Internal Family Systems (IFS) model of therapy, to explore how we can integrate all the aspects of who we are. We explain the IFS model, the nature of parts and their roles, and how we can use this knowledge to increase self-awareness and deal with common problems. Then Rick and Dr. Schwartz dive deep into the nature of the “Self,” where it comes from, and how we can tune into and strengthen it.

This was a wide-ranging conversation, and we were thrilled to have Dr. Schwartz on the podcast again. You won’t want to miss this one.

About our Guest: Dr. Richard “Dick” Schwartz is the creator of the Internal Family Systems (IFS) model of therapy, and has authored a number of books and over fifty articles focused on IFS. His newest book is No Bad Parts: Healing Trauma and Restoring Wholeness with the Internal Family Systems Model.

I am now writing on Substack, you can check out my work here.

Key Topics:
0:00 Introduction
2:10 A quick intro to the Internal Family Systems Model and our “parts”
6:55 Releasing the “Self”
11:25 The transpersonal vs. the scientific paradigms of the Self
16:25 How the practical side of IFS connects to the spiritual
23:55 The four goals of IFS, and fractals of parts
27:15 The practice of becoming your own attachment figure
32:35 Kindness and Richard’s own experience integrating his exiled parts
38:00 The value of the heavily personified framework of IFS
47:00 The counterintuitiveness of befriending our “bad” qualities
51:10 Relating the non-pathologizing nature of IFS to clinical psychological conditions
57:05 First and second darts
58:45 Identifying parts with curiosity, courage, and physical awareness
1:05:10 How asking yourself questions gets you in touch with your intuition
1:15:00 Recap

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[khansherani]

Yesterday I sat with my feeling of deep pain in heart, like sadness or grief. I did conscious breathing for couple of hrs, like saying to myself “breathing through” the feeling-while breathing in, “breathing over” the feeling while breathing out. After this process as if I felt more connected to the feeling where feeling started opening up to me. Still, I saw that there is a cocoon over the feeling I asked it to open up the cocoon and tell me what message it has for me And then suddenly sad image of my mother came up. Like in my infantile years, my mother felt lonely depressed and as an infant I absorbed her pain that is still pulsating in me in my psyche as my sad inner child. I talked to that infant and my mother, reassured them, was with them without any judgement and sent lots of love from here in year 2024 to them in year 1977-78.
I told them I understand your pain, I am proud of you both and you both are winner as I am proving it as adult self now. I kept engaged to them for around 2 hrs while keeping the breathing-through, breathing-into exercise live again and again.
To especially my infant self.
I reminded him about how we overcame past hurdles, and how resourceful I am now.
Looked like the infant felt relief and smiled, I continued my engagement. Felt little tired, but saw peace within, I felt my feeling is at rest, I did not feel happy more than yesterday since years. Guys IFST is real Feel the feelings and talking to them for reeducating them or reparenting them is real. I was hearing on this since 2019, but was not having that deeper trust in it but slowly when my circumstances pushed me to apply this healing fully, the results were there. Be very intense and compassionate in reaching to these feelings, breathing exercise will help you, and then say to these feelings that it did not hear when it was formed first here you will have the healing.... for me it worked after 30 yrs of puzzle and confusion.... :). By evening that day in years I first time felt my CPTSD inner pain inner sadness is at 0%.

And one thing is sure u need a lot of patience, courage and acceptance to the inner pain when you dive in to your feelings. Feelings want you to listen to it, to feel it to get it validated and then to complete with the pressing issue that was there when first time the feeling got created.

Your psyche, soul, spirit, nafs is a real entity. May be it is easy for this internal energy form of you to fragment and become many sub-selves, and these sub-selves got stuck in the time. You need to time travel back in time in your meditation having focus on your feeling, talking to them with compassion and then provide their unmet need. Once you do this completion process again and again the feelings come to rest and you get inner peace, joy and happiness, freedom to feel your true self fully and engage in life powerfully. And in all this above process bringing God to your side always helps after even your inner psyche is a created entity, the basic energy form and its creation that only its creator knows very well. Bring this higher power to your side and start your journey

[greenmanga]

I liked the way Dr. Schwartz called a pause on the concept of personification of parts as if you are creating those parts. For me it's like hearing a mass of voices in a darkened room all striving to be heard, some arguing, some crying, some shouting, and it's total confusion. IFS flicks the lightswitch on and allows the parts to be seen and identified and appreciated for who they are so they can be worked with. My only regret is how late I've come to this party

[devlynne]

"Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes." ~Walt Whitman 'Song of Myself'

[NolaCaffey]

O, had this all been available 50 years ago! I started studying psychology informally as a teenager, after a trauma-filled childhood, and have been in therapy four times. What you gents have described is exactly what worked for me, not to be "cured", but to be whole. Two comments on content: first, kindness is the main thing. In Dutch and German, the word for child is 'kind'. Second, in recent work with traumatized refugees*, it really helped in addressing the parentification of a struggling eldest sister (whose mom was overwhelmed) to congratulate them that the girl had risen to the task. Then to point out that, if you build a boat as the water rises, and it takes you to a beautiful leafy shore, you need to decide what to do with the boat, unless you want to drag it through the forest.
* As an unpaid community mentor (retired human rights lawyer), not a shrink - I am not qualified for that!

[SilvaWaters]

New viewer here. Slowly beginning my journey of getting help for my cptsd. This discussion was a gift. Being able to see myself as parts of a whole rather than a batched Jerkyll and Hyde science experiment 😅. Truly, thank you 🙏🏾

[Erika-gmtf]

As a recovering buddhist (I practiced it for two decades) and a recent discoverer of IFS, I enjoyed this interview so much. I've been a longtime fan of Rick Hanson. He's someone who seems to have made the most of his relationship with buddhism. It seems he didnt get caught up in the social drama and trauma of so many western buddhist societies. His questions and thoughts about this are all familiar to me.

But mainly, before coming on this interview, I'd been thinking that doing Schwartze's work has taken me to internal places that buddhism talks about, but never instructed ME how to actually get there. (I know others--like Rick Hanson here, have have had better experiences within buddhism). Schwartz is teaching non-duality and kindness more effectively and simply than most teachers of buddhism.

[JeffEmmersonSocialWork]

*As a new student in social work, episodes such as this one are of immense importance!*

[lovesingsus]

I love this conversation because of the curiosity of the participants and their willingness to go wherever the unfolding truths led them. Delightful.

[dixie]

This is the absolute best Dick Schwartz interview I've ever heard. Thanks so much! I love you guys❤!

[kellyhewins]

It is so heartwarming to hear the loving dialogue between son and father. Very touching to witness healthy authentic moments of expression like this.

[Nikki-ubky]

This was so huge for me. I've been struggling and fighting with these parts for the better part of the year. And as Rick says, what you resist, persists. I believe this will be a huge game changer for me. And on so many levels as I struggle with RA. You guys are changing my life one episode at a time, and I'm so grateful. Over the course of the pandemic, I had essentially shut down and was literally on death's door. You guys helped save me and I have come so very far. Never think that what you're doing is pointless. You're a force for the greater, highest good in the world. Thank you!

[alinakotova]

This is the best interview with Richard Schwartz I’ve seen - your insightful perspectives and questions helped bring so much depth into the conversation! Would love a follow up with more discussion by this group!

[bryanferguson]

As a soon-to-be therapist and long-time Zen practitioner, I found this episode especially enjoyable. It also reminds me of the "Big Mind" Zen practice of Dennis Merzel, as well as Hal and Sidra Stone's "Voice Dialog" method (Gestalt-ish). I am very interested in studying more about the IFS model of therapy. Thanks for another amazing episode!

[bevasarlasok]

I agree with the closing sentence of Dr Schwartz :D. Exactly! Beside the great and informative discussions in all episodes I listened to, it's a special delight to observe the kind relation between Dr Rick and you, Forrest. Thank you so much for your work.

[paulam]

Listening to this great episode of Being Well- most are great incidently- I was struck by how Richard would stop Rick when Rick used negative terms such as Greed, Sloth etc. I loved how Richard said those terms were dehumanizing in a way. I always thought of the connection between IFS and Buddhism was with the Buddha not dismissing but acknowledging Mara. He invited her in for tea. Did not reject her or make her wrong. She came to him in many different forms, trying to pull him away from his endeavors for enlightenment. Yet he was steadfast in his commitment in Self and did not try to push her away.

[sagetenshi]

No way! Haven't started the ep yet but so excited you got Dick back on the podcast to sit down with you and Rick. I'm halfway through No Bad Parts at the moment so I'm incredibly excited for this one 💪

[shirleylambrecht]

Great conversation. I was first introduced to Dr. Schwartz at a talk with Dr. Gabor Maté in Victoria BC approx 13 years ago. I have now acquired a series of his books and find IFS compelling as a stepping stone on the pathway toward resolving global conflict which begins within each and every one of our selves (not sure if upper case S or lower case s is appropriate here!) The notion of exiles is so apropos. Once we accept, heal, and integrate these fragmented parts within our selves this can naturally and organically lead to healing relationships in our outer world and beyond. Think the "butterfly effect." Those ripples outward keep on going, impacting the entire grid. This may sound a little woo-woo but it really isn't! Thank you for sharing this conversation. Many blessings. 🙏🕊🦄

[marychilderston]

So grateful I ran across this episode today! IFS has helped me through a very difficult last 6 months; turned the last half of 2023 from the worst of times into the best of times as my parts are learning to trust Self. Thanks Rick, Dick and Forrest; you all rock!❤

[skyyy]

It’s apposite that Richard Schwartz describes his own flowing into a spiritual view of the Self in this video; because I realised as I was listening to him for the nth time today that he’s the closest I have come to looking up to somebody for guidance. His presence is not simply of a therapist; it’s truly quite transcendental and calming in a way that true gurus might have. And of course the hosts are to be credited for eliciting this tone from Richard so effortlessly.

[carlabutler]

Parts as characters vs defenses, etc. I have 2 thoughts to add. The first is that, in general, people have no problem thinking of ourselves as people. I think of myself as a self, a person, the kind that characters are based on. It’s something that we just know about ourselves, without really needing proof. Understanding that my sense of self is created physically with a brain and neurotransmitters does not change my personal sense of self. I am no less a person. So for me the question that is being asked is not about whether I am a character or not, but whether am I one character or many characters. IFS gave me the ability to see myself as many characters, rather than just the one. This was a huge relief! It enabled me to have a better relationship with myself. The parts of myself I don’t enjoy are just parts of me, and the part that doesn’t enjoy them is also just a part. So now when going through life, I have the ability to connect to more of my whole self, even contradictory parts, or parts that I would normally prefer to suppress or ignore. I don’t have to be afraid of them, or dislike them, the way I might if I had to create a single story of my identity. (How can I be both very intelligent, and an idiot? Different parts of me, and a loud inner critic…) So I’m freer to be real, and to have a better relationship with myself, making me wiser and more at peace. The second thing is that these parts can’t be reduced to a single feeling, a single defense, a single anything. Like people, they are complex, with different sets of significant memories, feelings, goals, needs, fears, defenses, different ways of being in the body.And like the unified me that I perceive myself as, they can grow and change. So in fact, each of these characters is like a simplified reflection of me — what I wish I were, and am sometimes, what I wish I weren’t, and am sometimes — and it doesn’t seem like a big leap to think that I could be made of more than one rather than just one. When all are put together, the complexity of a human makes more sense.