Debate: Are we justified before God by Faith alone or by Faith and works?

T

[EasternOrthodoxApologetics]

Ofcourse I now comletely reject all forms of protestantism as I came home to the one Holy, TRULY Catholic and Apostolic Church i.e. THE EASTERN ORTHODOX CHURCH to Which I invite all of you as well.

[yawhtoi]

3 : Faith but no action = no salvation ( if he has a chance to act and does not believe in action) because no desire to action = no wish to charity (charity but no wish), no heart and no love. This charity is only superficial.
4 : Faith with action ( but he doesn’t believe action is necessary) = no salvation. Because no believe in action = no heart.

[yawhtoi]

6 : Faith but no action ( because he doesn’t know action is important (for handicapped, blind, mute etc.) (too vulnerable to know, to understand) = may be salvation, may be no salvation. Depends on god’s judgement.
7 : No faith no action ( because too young: a baby, blind, handicapped, mute etc.) = Depends on God.

[yawhtoi]

5 : Faith but no action ( because he doesn’t know action is important (for adults)) = No salvation
( because he should have known action is an important thing even in human world i.e. a husband should give some caring out of true love towards his wife if he loves her. Every wife likes it. The same with God too.)

[yawhtoi]

8 : However those who sin knowingly or unknowingly with faith or without faith, if they finally believe in Christ and have genuine regret ( True Faith), but their faith cannot come with action, will go to Heaven. The only difference is Catholics have to pay the price for every sin they made, and other protestants can directly go to heaven. Of course catholics can also go to heaven directly if they did not make any sins.

[yawhtoi]

There should not any Debate on Faith and Action really. Because if you have genuine faith, then come actions afterwards.
1 : Genuine faith + action ( based on genuine faith) = salvation. (100%) (all true christians believe that)
2 : Genuine Faith = also Salvation 100% ( If no chance to action)

[glizageire]

RCC
When the guilt of sin is forgiven temporal punishment remains [1472-1473]
Bible
When God forgives sin He completely forgives (Co 2:13; Isaiah 43:25).
RCC
Acts of penance make satisfaction for the temporal punishment of sin [1434, 1459-1460].
Bible
Jesus made perfect satisfaction for all sins (1 John 2:1, 2).
RCC
Indulgences dispensed by the Church for acts of piety release sinners from temporal punishment [1471-1473]
Bible
Jesus releases believers from their sins by His blood (Rev 1:5).

[TuyenPham-jmeq]

Important Bible Verse from the Book of James which all Protestants need to memorize:
Jas 2: 24, “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.” (King James Version)

Jas 2:24, “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.” (Revised Standard Version)

Jas 2:24, “See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” (New American Bible)

[redeemerslove]

I wonder what part of "...not by faith alone" Matt Slick missed?

[glizageire]

RCC
Salvation is attained by cooperating with grace through faith, good works and participation in the sacraments [183, 1129, 1815, 2002].
Bible
Salvation is attained by grace through faith apart from works (Eph 2:8, 9). Good works are the result, not the cause, of salvation (Eph 2:10)
RCC
Faith is belief in God and the firm acceptance of all that the Church proposes for belief [181-182, 1814].
Bible
Saving faith is the entrusting of oneself to Christ as Lord and Savior (Rom 10:8-17)

[ultimouomo]

The only time the words "faith alone" appear in the Bible, the words "not by" directly precede it. We are saved by grace but will be judged by our works; THAT is Catholic teaching.

James 2:24 "Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith alone? 

Romans 2:13 " For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous."

Luke 6:46 "Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord, ' and do not do what I say?

James 2:26 "For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead."

Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord, ' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

Romans 2:6 "Who will render to every man according to his works"

James 1:22 "Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says."

Matthew 16:27 "For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done."

2 Corinthians 11:15  "It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve."

1 Corinthians 7:19 "Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts."

Matthew 19:17 "But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."

Luke 10:28 "You have answered correctly, " Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live." 

2 Timothy 4:14 "Alexander the metalworker did me a great deal of harm. The Lord will repay him for what he has done."

1 Corinthians 3:13 "their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person's work."

2 Corinthians 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad."

Ephesians 6:8 "because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free"

Colossians 3:25 "Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for their wrongs, and there is no favouritism."

Revelation 22:12 "Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done.

Matthew 25: 31-46 "And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.

Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in: Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me. And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting."

James 2:24 "Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith alone? 

John 15:10 "If you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; as I also have kept my Father's commandments, and do abide in his love."

John 14:15 "If you love me, keep my commands"

John 14:21 "Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them."

1 John 2:3 "We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands."

1 John 2:6 "Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did."

1 Peter 2:21  "To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps."

"Acts 14:22 "strengthening the disciples and encouraging them to remain true to the faith. "We must go through many hardships to enter the kingdom of God, " they said."

1 Peter 4:1 "Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because whoever suffers in the body is done with sin."

Mark 10:29-30 "Jesus answering, said: Amen I say to you, there is no man who hath left house or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or children, or lands, for my sake and for the gospel,  Who shall not receive an hundred times as much, now in this time; houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions: and in the world to come life everlasting."


Acts 9:16 "I will show him how much he must suffer for my name."

Philippians 1:29 "For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him"

1 Thessalonians 3:3 "so that no one would be unsettled by these trials. For you know quite well that we are destined for them."

Matthew 10:22 "You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved."

Matthew 24:13 "but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved."

Romans 2:7 "To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life."

Hebrews 10:36 "You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised."

 Philippians 2:12 "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling"

Hebrews 5:9 "and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him"

[bobo]

Obviously the works salvation thing is something to challenge just to clarify. I mean that is damnable.

[cmre]

NOBODY CAN JUSTIFY THERE SELF. ITS SO SIMPLE JOHN 3.16 DO THE WILL OF THE FATHER .BELIEVE IN JESUS !

[harpstrings]

faith hope and Charity, I don't see works anywhere there

[glizageire]

RCC
Justification is a transformation of the soul in which original sin is removed and sanctifying grace infused [1987-1995].
BIBLE
Justification is an act of God in which He declares a sinner to be righteous in His sight, having forgiven his sins and imputed to him God's own righteousness (Romans 3:21-4:8).
RCC
Initial justification is by means of baptism [1262-1274]
Bible
Justification is by faith alone (Romans 3:28).
There seems to be major contradictions here between the bible & Catholicism

[glizageire]

RCC
Adults must prepare for justification through faith and good works [1247-1249]
Bible
God justifies ungodly sinners who believe (Romans 4:5) Good works are a result of salvation, not the cause (Ephesians 2:8-10).
RCC
The justified are in themselves beautiful and holy in God's sight [1992, 1999-2000, 2024]
Bible
The justified are In Christ holy and blameless before God (Ephesians 1:1-14).
These teachings are totally contrary to each other
I trust the bible over manmade teachings & dogmas

[glizageire]

RCC
No one can know if he will attain to eternal life [1036, 2005]
Bible
The believer can know that he has eternal life by the Word of God (1John 5:13).
RCC
Eternal life is a merited reward [1821, 2010].
Bible
Eternal life is the free gift of God (Romans 6:23).
RCC
he Roman Catholic Church is necessary for salvation [846].
Bible
There is salvation in no one but the Lord Jesus Christ, "for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).

[glizageire]

RCC
Sanctifying grace is a quality of the soul, a supernatural disposition that perfects the soul [1999-2000].
Bible
Grace is the undeserved favor of God (Ephesians 1:7, 8)
RCC
The sacraments are necessary channels for the continual infusion of grace. They bestow grace in virtue of the rite performed [1127-1129].
Bible
The child of God is the constant object of the Father's grace (Romans 5:1, 2).

These teachings are in utter contradiction to each other ~ anyone who is honest will admit this

[glizageire]

RCC
Justification is furthered by sacraments and good works [1212, 1392, 2010].
Bible
Justification is the imputation of the perfect righteousness of God (2 Corinthians 5:21). In Christ the believer has been made complete
(Colossians 2:10).
RCC
Justification is lost through mortal sin [1033, 1855, 1874].
Bible
Justifications cannot be lost Those whom God justifies will be saved from the wrath of God (Romans 5:8, 9)
UTTER CONTRADICTIONS
I trust scripture truth over Romanist error any day of the week

[tannardarr]

I'm not Catholic, I'm protestant, and I think Matt's more committed to being a conservative icon, than he is to God.   Personally my studies are geared more for finding out the intent of Scripture's message, and direction and how it applies to my life.  I don't care to pick a topic and try to eisegetically prove it means what I want it to mean.  Matt is a gross offender at this.  

I would love for Matt to man up to a real discussion on any number of topics.  I think it's important his bigotry from scripture is balanced with the counter view from scripture.  

I mean, the Pharisees were damn sure scriptural, to the T.  There is the intent of Christ, and there are the words of the Bible, and the application of both, does not necessarily cross paths too often. 

Homosexuality, Sola scriptura, Christian Maturity, Works/faith, any of those are hot enough topics to have a fun chat.  If Matt can come to the table, not be smugly presumptive, and defend his positions, and not dismiss my rebuttals, as most conservative icon wanna BE-s are prone to do.  

I want a real, and substantial, conversation.  

Here is my motivation.  If I'm going to witness to one of those with a hard negative towards God and the Church, you know the type, the vocal, has things to say that are bad.... the ones the book unChristian wrote about, I have to spend weeks countering the types of crap that is spit about by the ultra conservatives in the Christian faith before I can ever speak of God.  

There are a lot of bigoted, broken, backwards teachings in the Church now, and as a result, the church's fruit is one that is shrinking, not growing, or even maintaining.  

Matt has a forum to reach out to people.  He can either refute me resoundingly, or be refuted resoundingly.  Neither really matters, because either way the conversation is there for the world to see, and ask, seek, knock for some answers.  One or both of us will learn something from the chat. 

Matt is wont to say he doesn't want to be victimized by interviewers.  I don't blame him.  But he's wont to hide behind that as an excuse to not defend some of his views.  

While I admire this ministry, and your commitment to it, sincerely, the direction you have it pointed is Anti Christ, not Christ-like.  And the only \question is, are you more concerned about defending your image, or getting God's message right?