A Lutheran Response to Eastern Orthodox Theology

This is the beginning of a discussion of Eastern Orthodoxy in which I discuss some of the book "Changing Churches," in which a former Lutheran offers his reasons for leaving. The focus is on soteriology and atonement.

[tychonian]

Please keep doing those in-depth, scholarly series (Intro to Christology etc.). It's one reason I love your channel: you never do click bait, you never try to please the crowd at the expense of substance. That makes your channel a rare gold mine.

[tylerkroenke]

I’ve really benefited a lot from your Christology series, and it’s one of the most useful things I’ve found on YouTube. Thank you.

[alexlancaster]

To the Orthodox people in the comments: thank you for being so charitable and thoughtful in your responses. Online theology discussions rarely go beyond dunking on one’s opponents, and it’s a nice change of pace to see this.

[harrygarris]

As an Orthodox Christian I really didn't find the language about substitution and satisfaction to be objectionable. I think we really just recoil at the use of the punitive language towards Christ's sacrifice. Our focus is on Christ's willing offering of Himself for sin being the key factor rather than the satisfaction of divine wrath.

[WesternRenaissance]

Hey Dr. Cooper! Just wanted to say that I enjoy this type of videos as well as your deeper Christology videos! Thank you for what you do!

[AssdMusicChannel]

I was raised pentecostal but call myself a non-believer...I had a nice talk with a lutheran pastor today, it was just 20 minutes but the first genuine, respectful, non-vulgar conversation I had in years, I felt like I drank from an oasis in the desert

We talked about god, I always felt insecure about being pentecostal (no Tolkien or moody poets) and he warmly explained how the holy spirit is vital and missing in secular society.

When told me he was a pastor, it clicked, he got my interest and I suddenly asked if I could attend service tmrw and I am.

[ZZZELCH]

This was quite an interesting discussion.
Definitely helped me to understand our Lutheran friends.
-An Orthodox cousin in Christ

[aajaifenn]

St Athanasius does say in the letter to Marcillanius from a Psalter for prayer:

He suffered for us, and bore in Himself the wrath that was the penalty of our transgression.

[simontemplar]

Ex Orthodox here. I didn't get it either, and I suspect most of the folks in my former congregation did either. I don't say this in a disparaging way- they were kind and decent people, but the emphasis was absolutely more on doing the right stuff that we were very proud had always been done that way and everyone else was different. Once I started feeling like I was boasting in my works, I sought out a Lutheran Pastor and I've been in the LCMS since. That's a few years now anyway.

[evaneparat]

Orthodox have historically had no issues with Anselm of Canterbury's satisfaction theory of atonement. It is in fact affirmed by post-schism Orthodox Fathers such as St. Nicholas Cabasilas (d. 1392) in his famous work The Life in Christ, St. Philaret of Chernigov's (d.1866) Dogmatic Theology, and St. Nektarios of Aegina's (d. 1920) Catechism. This is from St. Nektarios on the Atonement:

"In His capacity as the great High Priest, the Savior offered Himself up as a spotless sacrifice to His God and Father, an atoning sacrifice; He was both the officiator and the sacrifice, propitiating and satisfying the justice of God which threatened humanity because of transgressing the divine law; He paid the whole penalty as a sinless representative of the human race before God the Father; the punishment that sinful man deserved He bore on the cross, shedding His precious blood for our salvation and sealing the New Covenant, which He made with the Father, and which offers salvation to everyone who believes in Him, confessing that His death on the cross made atonement."

[bradleytarr]

I appreciate that you gently point out how many Orthodox Writers can write an 800+ Page commentary on one verse. As a Latin, that is one of my critiques of the EO Church.

[Erick_Ybarra]

Great video. Look forward to hearing more on the Filioque. I will share this.

- Erick Ybarra

[anthonypassalacqua]

I am not a Lutheran but Dr. Jordon's explanation of the atonement is right on. The legal implications that existed between God and man had to be satisfied before we could ever experience God in Christ on a personal level. Thank you for this wonderful exposition.

[EricAlHarb]

I’m Orthodox and I would NEVER reject the forensic and substitutionary aspect of Christs work on the cross.

I’d agree that there are many many many orthodox who reject the forensic nature of Christs work because they want to separate themselves from the west.

I’d say this usually comes from western converts who are trying to run away from legalism.

However, it’s not Orthodox to reject the forensic nature of Christs work.

[ryanward]

Coming from an Orthodox point of view, I found this video really frustrating, primarily because I thought the Orthodox essay being responded to was so bad. It's unfortunate that in the anglophone world there's an unbalanced, largely reactionary (ie. defined negatively by the Western confessions it opposes) variant of Orthodoxy that doesn't really properly represent what the Orthodox church really is. It means that a video like this never really comes to grips with the Orthodox church as it is, but it's hard to fault people for responding to what are (unfortunately) the popular Orthodox polemics in the anglophone world. It is true that the Orthodox approach soteriology in a way that de-emphasizes the legal aspect, and I think that's appropriate and faithful to Scripture. But it throws everything out if perspective when this turns into just ignoring legal categories altogether. It's worth noting that Patriarch Jeremias never did this in his correspondence with the Lutheran theologians.

[jonathanvickers]

I’ve very much enjoyed your series on the Augsburg Confession, Christology, and Chemnitz. Keep ‘em coming.

[Andrew-wory]

Happy (almost) Easter to all! The Lord is risen!

[Apakmanski]

As a former Evangelical, Lutheran, and Reformed believer who became Eastern Orthodox, my advice to inquirers would be (1) do not waste 30-years (like I did) comparing and picking one that makes sense to you—your perspective will change and you will jump from one path to the other and never really know the truth; (2) traditions did not all develop side-by-side, they have different starting points, so look at which ones have been consistently the same for the longest because the truth does not change; and (3) Christ Himself says “And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent, ” John 17:3. Only in Orthodoxy have I begun to understanding that “knowing God” is more than head knowledge and trying to be a good Christian; God opens Himself to us only when we love Him with all our hearts and love our neighbors as ourselves. I fall way short (Lord have mercy), but have been blessed with glimpses of our true calling in our Liturgies and my life as an Orthodox Christian.

[jmh]

I am Protestant Christian, I married a Greek Orthodox woman. I actually knew very little about Eastern Orthodox before meeting and dating her (and even after marrying, I only then began delving into its history and doctrines). What I learned, at least from my own investigations and from spending time with her Greek family and reading numerous books on the subject by Greek Orthodox theologians), is that while the RCC (Roman Catholic Church) became ever more political and worldly after (and a bit before) the 1054 AD Schism, the EOC (Eastern Orthodox Church) became cemented in its cultural distinctions. In fact, I would say that's its greatest strength as well as its greatest weakness, its rigid cultural distinctions. It is its greatest strength because for those who belong to or ingratiate themselves into that religious culture, it is extremely tight and unwavering; both the RCC and EOC exhibit a culture of "us vs all others" but the EOC tends to take this a bit further than any Catholic I've ever met. Because the RCC has had to contend with the Reformers and modern Protestant doctrinal issues, today's RCC is much more... "open" to debate, so to say. For their own survival, they are forced to be, or they risk losing more adherents to their doctrinal challengers. But because the EOC has been largely cloistered and isolated away from the Reformers and modern Protestant denominations, it has not developed as much openness to debate and dialogue (or a culture that welcomes it) or been challenged in such a way. Today, as of 2023, I see the EOC getting much more limelight and the time is coming (or perhaps has already arrived) that they will, as a distinct religious culture, be forced to contend with the challenges and challengers from contrasting Christian denominations and not just dismiss all others as "all others".

All this to say, I find it all fascinating.

[briannawiese]

Wow Dr. Cooper,
I really enjoyed this episode of Just and Sinner as I think there is a need to hear about Eastern Orthodoxy from a historically rooted Protestant point of view. Every time I watch your channel I learn so much about church history and the Fathers from a Protestant perspective. Prayers and blessings from a Wesleyan Pentecostal fan!