Former Priest Critiques Orthodox Theology (with Joshua Schooping)

Rev. Joshua Schooping shares his top three theological concerns with Eastern Orthodox Theology, as outlined in his recent book—and why he is now Protestant.

Truth Unites is a mixture of apologetics and theology, with an irenic focus.

Gavin Ortlund (PhD, Fuller Theological Seminary) serves as senior pastor of First Baptist Church of Ojai.

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DISCORD SERVER ON PROTESTANTISM

00:00 - Introduction
00:48 - Response to Criticisms
03:52 -The Three Biggest Concerns
4:48 - #1) Exclusivistic Ecclesiology
05:55 - Historic Consistency
08:44 - Modern Inconsistency
11:23 - What Kind of Exclusivism?
14:36 - The Anxiety of Exclusivism
18:50 - The Assurance of Faith
19:57 - Protestantism and Catholicity
22:16 - #2) Venerating Icons
22:32 - The "Unchanging Church"
28:33 - Historical Concerns
35:26 - Biblical Concerns
38:41 - Idolatry Creeping into the Church
40:58 - #3) Mariology
43:50 - Mary Displacing Jesus
47:40 - Reformation in the East?
49:48 - Cyprian's Exclusivity
53:10 - Unfair Critique of Protestantism
1:01:36 - Final Comments

[slim]

The interviews with Pastor Schooping (and his channel as well) helped break a 30 year stalemate in my soul that kept me from fully believing that I am a child of God because I wasn't in the true church. I couldn't decide between Rome or Constantinople. Canterbury was as far as I could go. Both Rome and Constantinople made exclusive claims. I so needed someone to push back and peel back the veneer. I'm free of that burden! Thank God!! I am truly free of that burden. I can breath. I can rest. I can trust in God's grace. Thank you.

[l.elmo.di.scipio]

Hi, Gavin, loving your channel, it's very erudite and respectful. I'm a Latin American Roman Catholic. I always had trouble with the same things you two discussed here. The thing is I always searched for the most simple way of living the Gospel. While the RCC has an amazing vault of spiritual and theological resources, it rings hollow to me because of obstacles like the bloated Mariology, for instance. This would make the delights of anthropologists and historians alike, but for a layman, this kills the joy of belonging to this very ancient church. I'm sort of 'drifting' away into Protestantism (not afraid), but it all gets a little anxiety- inducing. Please pray for me! Love from Argentina!

[elizabethburns]

So nice to see people being kind and accepting in the comment section. normally there is so much anger towards people with opposing views. We as Christians just need to remember to speak the truth in love.

[henrietta]

I'm very thankful for your channel and these conversations. I struggle with the ecclesiastical anxiety you have described and have found great value here.

[Erick_Ybarra]

I've known Pastor Joshua for a long time. He is a great person. I might think there are good defenses for the Catholic/Orthodox view on these points, there is no denying that Joshua (and Gavin) present a worthy challenge that deserves a careful look. I estimate 9/10 Catholics and Orthodox will respond to these points from emotion rather than a slow analysis from history, logic, and the sources of divine revelation. Let there be true dialogue in charity.

[thegearhouse]

I’ve been SO lost in the theological weeds lately, I was on orthodoxies door due to their string claims of history and tradition. I was twisting and contorting all that I’ve ever known of the gospel to fit the ideas of the Orthodoxy. I was crying and having panic attacks nearly every day out of fear that I’d end up in the wrong church… Several people from the Orthodox Church were really pressing me to join with incredibly compelling evidence, but no matter how convinced I was, there was no peace in that conviction, only terror, fear, something almost evil about making that shift. Thank God Almighty, that I got to speak with Joshua last night about this very issue… he took the time, nearly an hour to calm me down, and reveal the flaws in my logic. I broke down and sobbed tears of relief afterwards. I finally felt the demons leave me… I felt God again… Praise God

[zewisdom]

As an Ex-Orthodox(now a Protestant Christian) I hear his testimony with tears and This interview enhanced my confidence for leaving Orthodox for good.

[annamaria]

Mr.Gavin ortlund
As an ex-orthodox to protestant
I really appreciate this video
These were some of my concerns too
And the testimony was touching!!!

[martynjukes]

What a blessing this has been. I am a Protestant who has recently started reading about church history. It had me questioning the validity of my faith with antiquity being held up as a plumbline. This has elevated my concerns brother. Thank you both so much.

[kellykizer]

Jesus said "who so ever" no denomination can save you. Only Jesus saves.

[culpepper]

I grew up Protestant and have been lost in a theological jungle for the past 15 years. No peace… in a world of anxiety trying to figure out which Church is right. So I resonate so much with that portion of this discussion.

[twentyfourthrones]

Another Great discussion from you two! Thanks for again coming together and addressing these much important issues.

[charlesking]

That was an awfully short hour. I had to check to see if I was running the video at normal speed. Thanks for giving the Rev ample time to make his points without interrupting him. It facilitates the formation of a clear memory in an old brain.

[colereece]

I’ve been attending Orthodox services now for about 2-3 months. I’m not ready to convert to orthodoxy, however I can say with full certainty that I’ve never felt closer to God than when I started shifting my perspective to the Eastern rather than western. I desire to be conformed to Christ’s image, and unlike my past, I’ve actually taken the steps to do it. No other church has brought this about within me. When I had left the faith for the New Age movement, there was nothing like this. This is a whole new experience for me.

[ahumblemerchant]

Thanks for this video! It would've been really useful to have this video when I was a young teenager. I've recently been listening to you (started with your discussion with Dr. Cooper on Baptismal Regeneration/Infant Baptism) and I appreciate how level-headed you approach these discussions (as well as critical responses to you). As someone who someday prays to be a Pastor, you've been a good example to me on how to discuss theological issues.

[LedHead]

Pastor Schooping is a great dude. It's so hard to find anyone who came OUT of the high church systems and into Protestantism. Schooping is the first I know of who doesn't stoop to low blows. He just tells the truth, in love and with peace in his heart.

[bowrudder]

I read the NT and I don't see hesychasm, I don't see energies, I don't see icons, I don't see the liturgy (which has changed again and again), I don't see deification (as opposed to sanctification), I don't see national churches. But I do see substitutionary atonement. And I do see that EO's ignore the councils that they are embarrassed by. Thank you, Pastor Schooping, for your book.

[mertonhirsch]

On issue 1. Interesting. My dad was an Orthodox Priest who converted from Anglicanism, and he was very conservative, but believed that while we should fear hell, that the concept of eternal punishment was contrary to God's nature, and that God had a plan for the salvation of everyone. He also believed that while the Eastern Orthodox Church constituted the Church and that salvation was through the Church, that that didn't mean that protestants, or pagans or atheists couldn't go to heaven, just that their salvation was made POSSIBLE by the existence of the True Church whether by the prayers of the Church for those outside the Church, or because the Church is the real doorway to the Kingdom of God and so everyone is going to eventually walk into heaven through the Church, if they do. Also, Orthodoxy does not have the same concept of mortal sins (or a concept of sin at ALL) like the Roman Catholic Church. Sinning is swerving or stumbling off of the path as you carry your cross, and JUSTIFICATION (unlike in the west where it came to mean being made square with the law, or with debt) means being made to stand upright and walk the right path. Justification in Greek means to be straightened out, not to have your debts covered.

All Orthodox are absolved after death (except those who committed suicide out of despair for whom we leave it to God, but Jesus gave the Church the power to lose and bind. Unlike Roman Catholicism, Orthodoxy is not capable of making absolute statements that would utterly prevent anyone from passing through purification. I won't speak for the Church here, except to say that the Church is somewhat mute on the mystery. Keep in mind that we believe that salvation is the path, not the destination, and so salvation is the process of trying every day to walk the path of God's will, and Baptism or initiation is clearly not required as we are taught by the Good Thief, as well as the 40th Martyr of Sebaste.

I will take the time to watch both of these videos though, I haven't had a chance to watch all of each one yet.

[godsgospelgirl]

This is really helpful, thank you. I've been trying to understand Eastern Orthodoxy, but listening to Eastern Orthodox priests and interviewees hasn't been as helpful as I hoped. They assume I understand their philosophy and vocabulary more than I really do, haha. So learning from a former Orthodox priest, who understands both Protestant and Orthodox thought processes, helps me comprehend it better.

[giannihatzianmevris]

Ex Orthodox here also. When I started reading the scriptures decades ago I realized that a lot of teachings in the Orthodox Church were not scriptural. Praise God for opening my eyes to see His Truth.