Roger Penrose - Toward a Science of Consciousness

How can consciousness be addressed scientifically? The Tucson Science of Consciousness (TSC) conference, founded in 1994 and having celebrated its 20th anniversary in 2014, exemplifies the quest. What are the range of theories? Where do participants position themselves? Meet the founders, early visionaries, new scientists and thinkers. Progress is being made, but what does this really mean?

Sir Roger Penrose is an English mathematical physicist, recreational mathematician and philosopher. He is the Emeritus Rouse Ball Professor of Mathematics at the Mathematical Institute of the University of Oxford, as well as an Emeritus Fellow of Wadham College.

Closer to Truth, hosted by Robert Lawrence Kuhn and directed by Peter Getzels, presents the world’s greatest thinkers exploring humanity’s deepest questions. Discover fundamental issues of existence. Engage new and diverse ways of thinking. Appreciate intense debates. Share your own opinions. Seek your own answers.

[KpxUrz]

Always such a pleasure to hear Penrose and Kuhn speak, either one or both! This concept of protoconsciousness is so fascinating, however I suspect that people have countless different ideas of what it may be. So I further suspect that, by definition, most people have wrong ideas about it. The fine line between the quantum world and the classical world is surely worthy of much further study. No one can be more eloquent than Penrose on this point.

Many who know the most about earthly fauna simply feel that consciousness is merely the expected refinement and interactions of sensory awareness. I even hesitate to use the word "awareness", because in itself it may suggest consciousness.

[Mystery_G]

Again, posting when your interviews were made, most especially as it relates to the study of consciousness, is so necessary.

[tac]

What we see and perceive is wildly different from what is.

[shelwincornelia]

Consciousness with its natural will to fully know/experience itself is the fundamental force behind the existence of the mind which manifests the universe in service of consciousness with its natural will to fully know/experience itself. 


There is no other way to really know this truth but by knowing ourselves as pure consciousness beyond body and mind.


I believe we are definitely getting closer to the truth.

[TimEasterling]

I feel like this could be a plausible explanation for the arrow of time only pointing in one direction. In a deterministic reality, it might be possible to travel backward in time, but if decoherence occurs when, and only when, the proto-consciousness is forced to make a decision, then there can only be one direction of time. Kind of like driving to the restaurant trying to decide what you're going to order. Even if you decided before you ever left your house what you wanted, you're at the mercy of whether or not the restaurant can make what you ordered. If you're not "entangled" with the restaurant, you can't know beforehand, so what you actually order is delayed until the point at which your order is made and delivered. Any farther back than that and you're only measuring intentions, not reality.

[stephenzhao]

What an amazing idea from Sir Roger Penrose! I appreciate a lot for the concept, proto-consciousness, which I assume is a plane life, human soul, ... 1:08 RP: Well I think these speculations have become more respectable in the sense. I think in the time when I got involved and wrote the empress new mind I I think it was regarded as a bit risky for any serious scientist to write something which had to do with consciousness it was a tabpp sibkect but it has become nore serious and serious scientists in a sense are allowed to talk about it so maybethe voice their views more than they would have done previously I don't know if it's just that it's certainly true that the scheme which Stuart Hamroth and I developed in the late 90s which we referred as orc or uh that scheme has sort of survived I mean the scheme itself is has been modified it's not exactly as we put it for what we would originally but it has become one of the accepted possibilities which in a way I'm not surprised about because I thought originally you ... 2:25 Bob: I think there are two views one is the core the basic scientific view and the other is what I might call the sociological view as you analyze this development of it acceptance willing to entertain at least some very radical ideas that might have been looked upon in the past as fringe ideas uh has become more widerspread among serious acientists. 2:43 I think that's true I think it's partly that scientists have become bolder and they're prepared to make statements about consciousness and then you get the variety of ideas that people naturally have on this popic. 2:58 Bob: how about the concept that philosophers and some scientists now have will are really investing in every particle of matter in the universe some sort of proto-consciousness that you need in as a fundamental force, a fifth fundamental force if you will and that when you get enough of them together you can have consciousness like we but you need that fundamental force in the universe? 3:20 RP: yes I should explain that the Orca or scheme which I've been developing this that's orchestrated orchestrated objective reduction theory stands for, OR stands for two things at once, one OR and the other objective reduction, means the quantum Schrodinger's cat if you like is either dead or alive. (Bob: right) But that requires something deviating from the standard evolution of Schrodinger which quantum mechanics would normally demand so you've got to understant, but in asking him OR is an objective reduction of the state so it does if you like Shreddering discount actuyally does become Dead or Alive way before you look at it. So that it's a new physics which isn't part of standard quantum mechanics but that's the view that I believe anyway for other reasons but the claim here is that not saying that it's a fifth force or goodness knows what that it is every time a quantum state which is in the superpostion is two things so particle being here and here at the same time when that becomes sufficient mass displacement then it become one or the other and that's a time scale for that to become on or the other and the idea is 4:37 that when that happens there is an element of proto-consciousness now I've got it not really consciousness because there isn't it's not organized in any way it's just happening all the time randomly throughout the universe so let's call that proto-consciousness it's if you like a very very basic element of awareness or somethng going on and it's the ingredient out of which consciounsness is made si 5:00 Bob: and that occurs everywhere and at all times? RP: at all times, well I wouldn't say at all times but most of the time it's when the quantum system gets to a level where there is enough mass displacement between superposed states that has to become one or the other and when that choice as to which it becomes if you like there's a choice of some sort made in the world and that choice is not organized in any way so it doesn't really qualifies genuine conssciousness or anything like that but it is the basic ingreadient in our scheme whereby consciousness comes about so when 5:36 people talk about the hard problem that is to say how can you have something different coming in which is perception or awareness whatever it is which isn't part of standard um evolution of ordinary physical system well that is because you have in an orchestrated way these proto-consciousness elements coming together in a coherent way and that is what constitutes consciousness on this particular view. 6:06 Bob and you would not say that is the equivalent of a fifth force or something unique (RP: no!) uh which the pan psychics would they would say whatever it is there is something of a proto-conscious nature everywhere? 6:20

[actualmig]

Here's a fun fact: Mario, of Super Mario Bros. fame, appeared in the 1981 arcade game, Donkey Kong. His original name was Jumpman, but was changed to Mario to honor the Nintendo of America's landlord, Mario Segali.

[catherinemoore]

Makes perfect sense to my non-scientific brain... Amazing. Exciting. Powerful. ❤️

[mariannelindsell]

Does anyone know where I can find out more detail about the latest adjustments of the Orch OR theory, please? I am familiar with the original formulation, but Prof. Penrose mentioned that the theory has been updated.
I was delighted to listen to this discussion, and thank you for providing it.
However, (necessarily) in this medium, the discussion was all too brief.

[anwaypradhan]

Well, the scientists around the world along with the researchers should cooperate and collaborate to make people of every ages to know about consciousness and how it works.

[constructivecritique]

Given mankind is the pinnacle of creation and mankind's mind is a great gift, then why be surprised would be interested in its beauty and nature.

[observer]

We can give labels we like to consciousness, but one thing is true, it is not in human body but rather body is in consciousness, it is not consciousness in universe but universe is in consciousness, consciousness is unbounded

[alwaysnaked]

As I look at consciousness I view it as a polished diamond with many different facets. Each one blinding the viewer from seeing and precieving the true beauty of it. Then getting lost in the glint of light and as you look away from it your vision of it is blurry and out of focus. Only to be found again in glimpses of a memory.

[russellbarndt]

It is all speculation still with no ground breaking questions to even to have researchable solutions but if humans continue to exist sometime in the far future maybe so till then it is best understood under the umbrella of Taoism since science is only now catching up with Physics research which I find amazing...

[sohraballahyari]

From the whole hypothesises, in relation to the subject of human consciousness, and how it may be deployed to perform super human functions, such as telekinesis, and telepathic and use of mindpower,
and power of thoughts as apparently being performed by the et species, where we hear a little 3 feet long et can actualy drive a spacecraft thd size a city or even many times the size of earth using the power of its thoughts
, then what immidiately pops up to mind is that of not only these highly advanced all unknown and never experienced by us humans in real time exist, but also at the same time the limitations and ranges of their applications also not being known to us at all, but for all we know just as Prof penrose is emphesising we are only tapping into the basic findementals and principles and and are only at the very beginning to enter to a huge new level of theiritacal and applied physics, yet to come but also from time to time hearing about these highly
new and advanced technologies being tested and proved to be functiona by the so many different scientific communities, but in order to be represented openly
, must wait for the right time and opportunities where the so
many different levels of newly developed techs, may surprisingly pop up catching every one by surprises indeed, and hopefuly it wont be long before we watch it all happen in our plain sight.right freinds?

[richardleetbluesharmonicac]

Roger Penrose, validated my discovery of the gap between general relativity and quantum mechanics before I ever heard of him

[jamesruscheinski]

might there be cognitive (intelligence) subjectivity from measurement / collapse of quantum wave function which has phenomenal consciousness?

[justmythoughts]

He just replays these videos over and over this is a old interview

[stancatalina]

The cat, if dead, left any heirs to look after the box? What if the box is gone missing, too?

[profskmehta]

Let us simplify Roger’s explanation. The universe is built over Consciousness. The situation like separated entangled particles arises, consciousness sets them at two complementary states. Consciousness existed before the birth of the universe and distance is a construct of the space which was born with the universe. So distance is not related with consciousness, I.e., it is present every where.