Is there a Difference Between the Lutheran and Roman Catholic Views of Baptism?

[Godfrey]

Just wanted to say thank you Dr. Cooper for your videos! My family and I recently converted to LCMS Lutheranism from a lifelong commitment to non-denominational (traditional baptist/evangelical in theology) Churches. The transition started when I watched your videos on baptism, which i initially thought were utter heresy. But, I took the advice you gave in the videos to just go and read the scriptures on baptism. The realization was eye opening; that the denomination I was attending, was not in line with scripture or the earliest church. And ironically these churches I attended claimed to not need confessions or creeds, because they preach the pure word of scripture.
Lutheranism has been a blessing, and I even had my son baptized! And all future children will as well.
Thank you again!

[logicaredux]

When one gets older and contemplates all the ways his sinful nature has consistently missed the mark over the course of a lifetime, one’s baptism becomes a rock to cling to in a shipwreck.

[carlwbaggettjr]

Thank you for this. This is one of the biggest reason why I love being Lutheran; there’s an abundance of reassurance in baptism. To this day, I remember my pastor marking my forehead with the cross of Christ. What a great day!

[henrylansing]

Penance relies entirely upon Baptism, because the sacrament would totally lack effect without it, as Baptism is the first initatory sacrament. So it's not that the Catholic view isn’t as "strong, " but that it sees Penance as a necessary means of returning to the grace given fundamentally at Baptism.

[jamesblack]

Thank you for these brief bursts of information and commentary, whether you extract them from your longer podcasts or create them separately.

[Stormlight]

Hi Dr. Cooper. It seems to me the biggest difference between Catholics and Lutherans isn't what happens after baptism but what happens at baptism. According to Dr. Christopher Malloy, the main difference is that Lutherans teach that original sin isn't wiped away in baptism, it is just overlooked on account of Christ's imputed righteousness. For Lutherans, original sin always remains in this life, even in believers, in what he calls remnant sin. The Catholic Church has always taught that baptism completely removes original sin putting us in a state of grace through the reception of sanctifying grace (Ez 36:25-27, Jeremiah 31:33, Hebrews 8:10, Romans 5:5, 2 Cor. 5:17, 11 John 3:9, Cor. 6:9-11, Gal 6:15). That is why when we later commit mortal sins, we need to repent and receive absolution because we have in some way broken our friendship with God (damaging our state of grace) until we are reconciled again through confession.

Here is a snippet of Dr. Malloy's explanation on the topic from his excellent book "Engrafted into Christ: a critique of the Joint Declaration":

Because the implications of Melanchthon 's thought were not always clear, Lutherans have frequently relied on the Formula's greater precision. The Formula makes explicit what is entailed in Melanchthon 's thought on remnant sin:

We unanimously reject and condemn [the following error: that] when the prophets and the apostles speak of the righteousness of faith the words .. "to justify" and "to be justified".. do not mean "to absolve from sins" and "to receive forgiveness of sins" but to be made really and truly righteous on account of the love and virtues which are poured into them by the Holy Spirit and the consequent good works [Solid Declaration. 111: 59 and 62].80

This confessional statement contests not merely the Pelagian anomaly found in nominalism but also the Catholic teaching that one is justified by the gifts that God pours into the heart so that sins may be washed away. In case one is misled by the Apology, the Epitome defines justification in terms of "absolution, " a pronouncing free from sin. 81 This pronouncement is the inverse aspect of the attribution of Christ's righteousness to the sinner. Through this attribution, Christ himself is the righteousness whereby the human person is considered righteous before God. 82 Justifying righteousness, then, is extrinsic to the human person, even though it is never without concomitant effects. The Lutheran refusal to describe justifying righteousness as the inhering justice poured forth by God is the pivotal point of disagreement with Catholicism.

**Malloy, C. J. (2005). Engrafted into Christ: a critique of the Joint Declaration. New York: P. Lang. p. 41-42**

God bless!

[collettewhitney]

@dr Jordan another amazing prestige video and more importantly great food for thought god bless you 🙏

[toddvoss]

Hmm. Glad you eventually talked about daily repentance or it was beginning to sound like once baptized you can never lose your salvation - but Lutherans do believe you can lose your salvation. I am not sure the difference on repentance is as deep as you say - it is quite orthodox within Catholicism to say that the sacrament of reconciliation is a “return” to one’s baptism. Dipping your hand in holy water, though not a sacrament (a sacramental), is also a weekly reminder of one’s baptism. I do agree that there are some differences and I like and appreciate the Lutheran emphasis on experiencing one’s baptismal state in the present.

[Michelle_Picket]

Hey Jordan, I’m just wanting to understand what you mean by repentance without the need for

In the catholic view, if one commits mortal sin after baptism, you should go to confession as you are no longer in a state of grace and therefore are in danger of hell. Penance is not dependent upon forgives/absolution. For instance if I forgot my penance it wouldn’t mean my absolution didn’t count. I’m forgiven of the sins I confessed regardless of whether I did the penance or not taking a quote from ‘A catholic Thing, ’ “Doing penance isn't a way of earning God's forgiveness. Christ has already won that forgiveness for us by means of His sacrifice on the cross.”- So I’m not sure what you mean by the Lutheran view being that if you commit sin (mortal sin example: adultery) all you have to do is look back at your baptism? Don’t you also believe that would require confession (I suppose depending on what Lutheran you ask individual confession or the corporate confession before the liturgy)?

It almost sounds like your position is, oops I committed grave sin, well I’ll just remember my baptism and move on down the road. I know that Lutherans believe in confession but I am confused as to how this is applied, if you do not accept penance as part of repentance. If you can clarify that would be helpful. Former LCMS lutheran, now catholic here.

[darewan]

Rome believes that baptism works 'ex opera operato' but I thought the Lutheran view was faith as expressed in baptism, is the instrumental cause of salvation. Have I misunderstood Lutheranism? Thanks.

[asgrey]

In saying baptism forgives future sins, does this mean Lutherans do not believe one can fall away from grace in something similar to “once saved, always saved”?

[earlygenesistherevealedcos]

Can you do one on why Lutherans even still believe that we inherited guilt from Adam's sin? Seems like Augustine came up with it due to a faulty translation of Romans 5 ("in him all sin" instead of "because all sin"). Seems like you could go with the Eastern Orthodox, or really almost any branch of Christianity that did not go Augustinian there.

[girornsveinsson]

Could you discuss "Lordship Salvation" according to John McArthur from a Lutheran perspective?

[peterw]

Thanks for the video. Doesn’t John 20:23 confirm what Catholics teach? “As the Father has sent me, so I send you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them. “Receive the holy spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them and whose sins you retain are retained.” Why would Jesus ask his disciples to forgive sins after His resurrection when he had just died for our sins?

[kjhg]

Would you say that, in baptism, God makes his covenantal promise to you? Or would you say that baptism is a reaffirmation/re-proclamation of the promise of salvation already made? I would argue the former, because if the latter is true, baptism wouldn't really do anything for an adult convert who already has faith.

[dylan]

Im really confused by the way confessional Lutheranism holds to a necessary reconciliation through the Word and Sacrament as a part of normal Christian life—that we are forgiven in God’s heart, but that we must receive his word of absolution if we are to remain in Christ after a sort of build-up of sin/shame turn us away from Him. This seems exactly like a second-plank of salvation to me. Or even more simply: that we retain the possibility of mortal sin, are unsure of whether we’ve done it, but cling to the Word and Sacrament for certainty that even if we did cut ourselves off, we are now reconciled through our reception of his gifts in the Divine Service. The only difference I see between this and the Roman Catholic view is that the Catholics at least know when they’ve mortally sinned.

[NIA-]

Repentance in the Lutheran tradition (at least as is practiced) is the corporate forgiveness of sins as proclaimed during the liturgy by the Pastor. There are precious few Lutheran Pastors, as far as I know, who offer individual confession. When I was Lutheran, I wondered how that can be.

[ahumblemerchant]

To my understanding, don’t Roman Catholics claim Original Sin’s effects are annulled in Baptism, whereas Lutherans make the more modest claim of the guilt being removed, but there still being continued effects of the stain in the lives of the believer post-baptism (such as concupiscence)?

[rexlion]

So you're saying that in Lutheran theology, one is saved by grace through baptism. Isn't that correct?
Scripture says,  *For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast* (Eph 2:8-9).
Seems like a person could be infant-baptized, go to church, tell God every week he's sorry he messed up yet again, yet never actually place his full faith and trust in the propitiatory/redemptive work of Christ as his sole source of salvation. After all, he's trusting for grace in his "state of baptism."

I'm not trying to be difficult or obnoxious, but as a Christian who takes our Lord and the Bible seriously I've attempted to express a legitimate concern.

[nemoexnuqual]

Gods mercy endures forever. As much as I disagree with the new large catechism (God is unchanging, his word is unchanging, therefore we should be going to the oldest versions not trying to change God to be anti-gun and more inclusive of unrepentant sin in order to fit culture) the Lutheran view on baptism is I believe the correct one.