Surviving the Age of Algorithms - Dr. M.S Delay & Dr. A.V. Bendebury, DSPod #244

It's our final solo conversation from the tour and we're breaking down an issue that we have held different perspectives on for quite some time: the limits & importance of free speech. In part, we are responding the documentary "This Place Rules" by Channel 5 creator, Andrew Callaghan, which tracks the absurdity, hypocrisy, and more than anything, the profiteering surrounding the buildup to the 2021 invasion of the Capitol in Washington D.C. Shilo argues that it could have been avoided if dissidents hadn't had their voices removed from the internet. Nastia isn't convinced, on account of the power of the incentives backing the revolt. In the end, we circle around the need for a de-algorithmatized public forum, which might provide the basis for an actual democratic republic.

Tell us your thoughts in the comments!!!

00:00 Go!
00:04:30 The case for free speech absolutism
00:15:04 The days of rage and sanctioned protest
00:24:19 Handling a neighbor that's killing your chickens
00:34:33 Is an appreciation for dialogue on the rise?
00:43:59 Is the getting banned from internet to blame for the power of fringe movements?
00:50:07 The raw wound of forbidden speech
00:56:30 The central importance of
01:04:05 The need for a true public square
01:13:50 Closing thoughts

#sciencepodcast, #FreeSpeech, #Democracy, #PoliticalPhilosophy, #InformationRegulation, #Populism, #FreedomOfExpression, #CivilRights, #PublicDiscourse, #IntellectualDialogue, #Liberty, #CensorshipDebate, #CriticalThinking, #DigitalEthics, #OnlineDebate, #PoliticalTheory, #EthicalCommunication, #MediaFreedom, #OpenSociety, #TruthSeeking, #DemocraticValues


PODCAST INFO: Anastasia completed her PhD studying bioelectricity at Columbia University. When not talking to brilliant people or making movies, she spends her time painting, reading, and guiding backcountry excursions. Shilo also did his PhD at Columbia studying the elastic properties of molecular water. When he's not in the film studio, he's exploring sound in music. They are both freelance professors at various universities.

SOCIAL:

MUSIC:

[YawnGod]

As some washed-up comedian used to say: "Why would a bunch of 2nd Amendment gun-nuts go to the Capitol to start a revolution AND FORGET THEIR GUNS?"
Some humans are truly living in a mindscape of their own, eyes closed both metaphorically and literally.
The beauty of it.

[TheMemesofDestruction]

29:35 - Legalize Dueling; Maximum Freedom, Maximum Responsibility.

[michaelheil-ijji]

Holy cow!
A discussion centering on free speech.
Delightful.
Good specific and troublesome examples were discussed in fair detail so that the larger issue of the need for free and open public debate could be addressed contextually. While I thought that several of the examples were miss characterized, I’ll leave it at that, they did help to illuminate the importance of public speech that was addressed by those who established our country, and the importance that they placed on its freedom.
The “good cop, bad cop” approach was helpful, each of us being able to choose which was which based on our on political leanings. Shilo’s reluctant “ I’m coming to believe” and his views following seemed heartfelt and genuine. I must say that relative to my views, he was the “good” cop in the discussion.

Some points:
-There is a common thread in both of your positions of the perniciousness of capitalism. The thinking that the “ corporate” boards are rubbing their hands together and curling their mustache ends to trick the unsuspecting potential buyers of their products by tuning into a particular broadcast, is generally wrong in my opinion. I think that you are being duped in a game of three card monte. Don’t confuse the hogs grunting at the public trough, the capitOlist, with the capitAlist approaches. The first group lobby to engage in current “needs” initiated by the governmental agencies, like the C- word issues or health care or higher education funding issues, and, yes internet access issues. The builders of the troughs, the politicians, are mainly to blame, less so the weak minded, morally challenged piggies who partake. They team up, though, in a mutual cabal we know as “crony”
capitalism, or more appropriately crony capitOlism.
A separation of economics and state is necessary to address this issue.

The second group does, in fact, want to sell you underpants and crotch deodorant. If you are in need of these, buy them, if not, don’t. But is Fox News, as an example, run by the back brace, nutrition aiding, sleep-enhancing, gold accumulating, cruise line, pain reducing, pillow making cabal of corporate greed mongerers?
Sorry, no.
The demographics drive the mutual agreement to advertise and thereby indirectly “support” the things said on that broadcast. Old people happen to be more conservative and need these things at this stage of their lives.
Does Joe Rogan choose someone with views similar to his, irrespective of audience interest, hits, or does he select guests that grab audience attendance? Just like you guys, he thinks a certain way and assembles a collection of guests that have tickled his attention. And his attention-focus and approach has happened to have made his broadcast immensely popular over the years.
As in most capitalistic, with an A, enterprises, the costumer/consumer drives the agreements made between the sellers and buyers.
Are there exceptions? Of course. Capitalism is not perfect, cuz people are not perfect. But as Churchill said about democracy: It’s the worse except for all the others tried. And it’s the most morally justified natural “system” set up by generally well meaning people. Go to any farmer’s market and observe the beauty of the balance between work and effort of the sellers, and the need fulfillment of the buyers. Everyone loves these markets almost innately. One rarely sees a black mustache being stoked. ….(one has to keep an eye on those rutabaga sellers though)


-“There’s something in the water”.
So much to say.
Is it the thing in the water, or is it the water in which the thing resides?
To what extent is the concept of free speech, the thing, affected by the media in which it “floats”, the water? I think this is the question of interest.
You were so correct in bringing Marshal McLuhan into the discussion. In his book The Medium Is the Message, he addresses the drastic changes that occurred with the advent of the archeological written word, the Gutenberg printed word, the radio and then television developing during the time of his investigations. His concern was how civilization has handled communication upheaval during these times of these technical advances…..the media itself being the message.
Authoritarian impulses were unleashed at each episode through both governmental as well as religious directives. The Protestant reformation was a consequential reaction to a personal understanding of their beliefs unleashed not coincidentally along with the printing press. The enlightenment, unchained thought, shortly followed.
How we handle this newest technological advance in communication, the internet, can be understood and directed as to how we handled these changes in the past.
America’s founders, as seen in their constitution, realized that free speech was vital in supporting the desires of a free people, along with limited governmental control.
As Shilo correctly points out, communication, freely exchanged, can defuse, though not necessarily eliminate, physical conflict.
We must restrain our quick reflex to stifle the thoughts of others for “the betterment of mankind”, and allow for the release-valve of free communication to develop. We must struggle to keep our government from creating a well intentioned restriction of our thoughts and speech. Short term pain for long term benefit.

Great discussion guys. Very stimulating.
Really enjoy these chats between you too.
Hope the next conference will get you on the road again to share your views with us.

[charliesinger]

Finally made it to the podcast so many things to do. Good discussion on Discord. Hope to see more, ,,,this topic is important. Now on to the Once Again thank you so very much for all your

[tkwu]

Adore you both. You make the world and especially science better than anyone on the web ❤

[KRAU]

Love this Podcast and the discussions!

[MrWolynski]

I agree with Michael about it. Money rules. Its the golden rule, who has the gold makes the rules.

[Robert-nmtz]

Thank you for a very interesting discussion on the problems with social media and the importance of freedom of speech.

One idea to help combat the problem of political echo chambers would be to create a government funded regulator to oversee the way social media recommendation algorithms work. Have penalties for companies whose algorithms fail to expose users to a sufficiently broad range of political views. For example the aim might be to ensure that at least 20% of a user's recommendations present an opinion that contrasts with the user's normal preference.

Education is also important. Children should be taught how to recognise which information sources are reputable, and encouraged to seek out both sides of a debate. Teach them how to think, not what to think.

In the UK each October we have the Battle of Ideas festival in London, featuring a broad range of in-person debates on topical issues, with many highly articulate speakers from across the political spectrum. Many of the debates are available on YouTube on the worldwrite channel and the battleofideas channel (Academy of Ideas).

[gojira]

My favorite episodes are the ones with no guest where you two choose a topic and chop it up. I'm sure that would get old for you and me both after a while but as it stands now they're the best.

[boohoo]

Shilo, take a look at Kim Iversen's show from the eighteenth of April around the fifty-second minute over at the rumbling river for a 5 minute summary of the story of the chicken-killing neighbors.

[LUKEQUARTO]

Ways to incentivize neutral dialogue without advertisement? / Role of immaterial art in reshaping perception? / What common ground do all people share? / Interdependency lacking in educational models? / 💙🌊💧

[jaydenwilson]

You both look far healthier! (Less pale I mean!)

Sun did you both great!

.... now I'm regretting spending AUS summer indoors so much....
😅

[morphixnm]

I think it was and is the censorship of thinkers and their ideas in schools and universities that has led to the abandonment of competing ideas and perspectives. When a civilization walks (or runs) away from freedom of speech and the intelligent competition of ideas, the public will inevitably move away from the consideration of ideas to the battle of groups. In some ways, it is a triumph of unexamined capitalism that money and power can grow in the hands of a few all the way to a civilization's foreseeable collapse.

[jacquesvincelette]

The American Dream, 'Fake it till you make it', pushes hustle as colonial impetus.

[hangbrand]

I 44:30 collective consciousness of rage through media such as TV. It could’ve taken longer to gather the rats, but it worked

[morphixnm]

Like a sinking ship with people on all different sides and levels, if no one understands why the ship is sinking and whether it can be repaired, the only difference will be the order of people entering the water. But those in power will make money to the end and then sail on in their golden lifestyle boats.

[tomb]

I have deep sympathy for both positions. I believe the censorship of science during Covid was insane and abhorrent. But I also see the wisdom of Anastasia's point, because before the internet, there was always a kind of de facto baseline censorship of whatever publishers declined to print.
Finding the correct new balance is proving difficult.

[morphixnm]

Freedom of speech accomplishes no more good than the intelligence of it can facilitate.

[jaydenwilson]

1:19:30

Ummm....

If I knew the answer then I would of made my own youtube 10 years ago lol

The best advice I ever heard from an artist was this.... "Make if for yourself."

Apparently the best creations are selfish ones or something.... if you try to make the algo, audience, etc. happy over yourselves you risk missing the forest for the trees apparently.

[asdfasdfasdfasdf]

14:23 “…there was a cleavage in the group…” Straight-faced punnery?

Also, the band was Weather Report :-)