Did the Catholic Church DETERMINE the Books of the Bible? | Red Pen Logic

Tim argues that the Catholic church did not grant authority to the books of the Bible, but, rather, recognized the authority those books already possessed.

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[toddflanders]

I’m pretty sure that people could fly before Newton invented gravity.

[Hmmm-L]

It's not EITHER the authority of the books OR the authority of the Church to compile them. It's BOTH.

[stephenbailey]

The bishops at some point officially recognized those scriptures that had been accepted by the church for a long time.
(No matter if you call it Catholic or Orthodox or just The Church.)

[bejamen]

I think this kind of dances around the main point of the argument. I’m a protestant, but I still feel the weight of the catholic critique. The main point is that if they only recognised the Scriptures which have authority, you leave open the option that they got it wrong. Therefore, this leaves you in a tricky situation where you have people like Martin Luther who have issues with some books, and technically you can’t say with 100% certainty that they’re wrong, because for all we know the Canon was misidentified.

[TheRomanOrthodox]

That is ignoring the fact that several works were largely considered inspired, but not accepted as part of the canon of Scripture, such as the Letter of St. Clement, while others were variously considered canonical or not based on liturgical usage, such as the book of Revelation. What is clear is that the determination of the canon was not meant to be an exhaustive treatment of revelation, but rather a set of books that had ecclesiastical usage and approval. It is only the Church (by which I mean the Orthodox Church, not the Roman church) that puts any kind of closure on the canon, even though the Orthodox Church leaves somewhat open the revelation of God in the Church.

[julieelizabeth]

Jimmy Akin has a great article out there called "Books that almost made it into the Bible." It was a long discernment process.

[KathyBGood]

next up, the roman catholic church grants authority to the names of the apostles. I am so, so thankful God inspired me to read His Word and that He saved me. and brought me out of roman catholicism & the lies I was taught mixed with truth. Please, pray for God to open your eyes as you read your Bible, and humble yourself before Him.

[mwdiers]

This is more historical revisionism. Carthage and Hippo did not make any decrees on the canon. Like many councils, including Nicaea, they recognized the authoritative books. No decree on the canon was made in the Roman Catholic Church until the Council of Trent.

Some Catholic apologists will attempt to invoke the Council of Rome in 382 on the theory that the Decretum Gelasianum was issued at that council by "pope" Damasus I and contains a list of accepted books. But this is now commonly disputed by many scholars for good reason, and is considered to be yet another pseudonymous work, likely composed in the 6th century.

First, Jerome mentions the Council of Rome only in passing, so he is aware of it. But he never once mentions such a council making a decision on the canon. Given the question of the canon was critical to Jerome, it is highly improbable that Jerome would ignore the Decretum if it existed at that time and originated in the council.

Second, the Decretum was not referenced in any extant documents until the 8th and 9th centuries. Thereafter it exists in two versions. Neither version references the Council. The Damasine version is attributed to Damasus. The Gelasian version to Galasius, who post-dates the council by a century.

Third, the Damasine version quotes a work of Augustine that was written decades after the council.

[stormchaser]

I think you misunderstood his argument. It’s not that the Church makes the books authoritative, he agrees that the authority comes from their inspiration by God. Rather, his claim is you need the Church to authoritatively tell you which books God inspired.

If you don’t have God leading the Church to make this determination, then its up to each person’s private judgment on what is and isn’t the word of God. Eg: Luther trying to remove the book of James. You need an authoritative list of authoritative books to prevent this.

[YugaKhan]

This is always Wade on me is a Protestant, Jesus said that the holy Spirit would guide the church also Jesus always talked about the church and yet I'm not a part of the Orthodox or Roman Catholic Church and I Sola scriptura. I'm finding it harder and harder to justify my actions and how I show my faith. Sometimes I feel that being a non-denominational Protestant is about as far away from the original church as I can get. It makes me sad

[sebastiansingh]

Remember when the Jews were catholic lol ? Cuz i dont .

[JJ-cwnf]

Athanasius had different Old Testament books chosen than any Bible used today. And that was 367 AD and the first New Testament list we have today exists. Yes it influenced the later councils. That proves the church chose our Bible. Unless there’s evidence God told someone?

[aussierob]

It was by Apostolic Tradition that the Church discerned which writings were to be included in the list of the Sacred Books. This complete list is called the Canon of Scripture. It includes 46 books for the Old Testament, and 27 for the New Testament.

[joshualopez]

This priest would agree with you. Respectfully, I’m not sure you understand exactly what he’s saying. God used the Catholic Church to recognize the authority of these books. Without the Catholic Church, the OFFICIAL cannon of the Bible that all Christian’s are bound to accept, would not be known as the official cannon. God used the Catholic Church to bring the Bible to the world, and to set what books are officially in the Bible.

Just because people recognized what books are scripture before hand doesn’t make this anymore legitimate. Of course people recognized scripture before it was officially cannonized. I’m sure people thought books that WERE NOT the word of God belonged in the Bible as well. That’s why we needed this authority that God gave the Church, to officially set what books are in the Bible, not cause we said it, but cause God said it. And God used his Catholic Church to do this.

[mikecrotteau]

I don't think the priest explained the Catholic Chuch's position on biblical and Church authority very well.

[YugaKhan]

I get what you're saying about how the scriptures were always scriptures. But there's a lot of stuff that's not in the Bible. In fact we keep talking away from it Andy Stanley wants to take away the entire Old testament. He will succeed in a way his followers will only read the New testament and it'll be because if you're your own church you get to decide. I go to Alistair beggs Church. He decided that his advice to support trans weddings is compassionate and there's no need for repentance of that advice. We are all our own popes. I truly believe this will lead us to ruin. Debunking weather the Roman Catholic or Orthodox Church is the original church has become so important that we will deny the labor hard work and institution the scripture came to and the people who put the Bible together and were able to recognize through the holy Spirit true scripture from false doctrine. Don't do this it's not worth the price.

[bennymameshiro]

Your theory falls apart at the Protestant revolt when Luther removed 7 Old Testament books. This would mean that the books were not obviously authoritative because we would have used non inspired books unknowingly for over a thousand years. Then you have the opposing problem, Martin Luther is now the one taking the “obviously inspired books” and removing them of his own authority. Your choices are either God worked through Luther after 1000 years of misguided reading, or He worked through the Church to find the correct books.

[ricksonora]

In addition, the councils mentioned were mere alliances of local churches. The hegemonic Catholic corporation did not exist until centuries later, and the Roman Catholic Church did not exist until a millennium after Christ.

Rome’s claims remind me of an old comic trope. Russians used to claim to have invented every great invention.

In Star Trek, Klingons made similar claims. “You should hear Shakespeare in the original Klingon.”

[suem]

That is a stretch. Catholics and Orthodox hand wrote the texts, copied them, shared them, then decided Shepherd of Hermes should not be included as authoritative. Your question should be: by what authority did Luther have to remove books from the canon? A council? Nope: unilateral. THAT should be suspect.

[freezafrezado]

"no one had to wait for a council at the end of the fourth century to determine which books were authorative".
Man says that like there wasn't a huge arian crisis going on and that it wasn't necessary to determine what was the true christian faith