What Should Canon and Nikon Do?

With Canon and Nikon being the biggest camera manufacturers by far, it's odd how few innovations we've seen from them recently. With Photokina 2014 on the horizon Chris Niccolls and Jordan Drake have a discussion on what they would be excited to see announced this year.

Shot by Nicole Santerre
Edited by Jordan Drake
Filmed on the Sony F5

[ThomasBryant]

You guys should seriously have your own reality show or discovery channel show about photography and it's industry. Whether u both agree or disagree about how the industry and some companies should more forward in the future, u guys are THE BEST informative and entertaining photography hosts I've ever seen. Everything I've done and purchased for my life and business came from your thumbs up or thumbs down. Much appreciated, always!

[JeremyGalloway]

and these guys keep it so real. They don't try to protect certain brands just to push sales at their store. They honestly tell you which brands they think are under-performing and aren't afraid to bash cameras that deserve it. Awesome!

[jbealsmusic]

You guys have, by far, the best camera reviews on YouTube.  Great discussions and field tests with entertaining personalities while still being really informative.  Keep up the awesome work!

[Ranblv]

I think you already said what would be the winner option.
Create a highend mirrorless camera that out of the box can support the whole existing lenses, no one would buy a sony or a fuji if he is already heavily invested in Canon gear and can re purpose the gear he already owns.

[tgmwright]

What should Canon and Nikon do? Make all their cameras waterproof. ALL OF THEM.

Who cares what they do, as long as Fuji keeps kicking ass.

[Rationalific]

I hope these "After Dark" shows continue.  This topic in particular is very interesting and much needed.  So far, the average Joe would still pick up a Canon or Nikon because of the name, but people with more knowledge about recent innovations have been moving elsewhere (even if they still have a Canon or Nikon, too).  I've owned non-professional Nikon and Canon cameras, and I loved them at the time (and still love them)...but even 4 years ago, when the Sony A55/A33 and NEX 5/3 came out, I knew that things were changing.  (The development of micro four-thirds by Panasonic and Olympus was also a milestone.)  I became a fan of Sony years before buying a Sony.  (I now have a Sony A77 Mark II.)  I wish their NEX-like series had in-body image stabilization.  If they had that, then I'd definitely get one in the future.  As things are, Olympus has some interesting cameras, even if they have slightly smaller sensors.  I'm not sure what kind of mirrorless I'd get.  However, just with SLR-style cameras, the Sony A77 Mark II has amazing autofocus and beautiful image quality.  It also has "Eye Autofocus" and a slew of other features.  For a job, I used a Canon DSLR and I hate that in "live view" mode, the focusing is so slow.  (It's not the dual-pixel one, though, so newer Canon cameras might be better.)  I hate having "live view" work differently from the "viewfinder" mode.  With my Sony, I'm blown away, and I feel that it is the best APS-C camera out there (and I prefer APS-C to full-frame anyway).  I do hope you do a review on the A77 Mark II soon.

[thegadgetdude]

good chat interesting to see where both companies go now. I agree that the C series video camera are probably a bit out of reach for the users who used t2i and t3i for video, the problem is for the money they're not that advanced, certainly when the higher end C models start to fringe on the price brackets of great video cameras like the F5 etc.

[AgnostosGnostos]

In 2014 the optical autofocus phase detection of dSLR cameras was amazing but the electronic hybrid autofocus of mirrorless had began to be very competitive even for professional work.
In 2014 the domination of mirrorless cameras wasn't clear yet.

[Jarl_]

One of the reasons I bought a mirrorless camera was the drastically smaller body and lens size. The best camera isn't the one with the best image quality, it's the one that's on you most often. A mirrorless is far more portable than a clunky DSLR...

[spelunkerd]

Unfortunately the fuel that drives innovation has traditionally come from pocket cameras. With every young person now having a quality P&S camera already built into their phone, that income well has dried up....

[JeremyGalloway]

This video is as relevant as ever today. I can't believe you uploaded this in 2014!!

[tomscott]

I have been sitting on the sidelines for almost a year to see how this all plays out.  Bottom line, all the innovation and forward thinking is happening with mirrorless.  DSLR still has full-frame nailed (and a slight but ever-shrinking lead in focus and low-light performance) but for anything short of a full pro setup they are losing ground.  

It's almost like they had a meeting and decided how to carve up the market.  Sony made a big splash with their full-frame models and is relying on brand recognition (and Zeiss glass) for the mass-market appeal.  Panasonic decided to go after broadcast-quality video where many think they now rival the "big boys".  Olympus went for focus and burst speed stats combined with DSLR/SLR looks.  Fuji decided to focus (unavoidable pun) on image quality and rangefinder retro backed with some pretty amazing lenses.  Fuji took that one step further by coming out with the X100, the S and now T.  I know over a dozen pros who are using this as a backup and for street shooting.  This got them more integrated and accepting of the mirrorless format.  Brilliant strategy.

Canon and Nikon are in a pickle.  Continue with their "circle the wagons" approach will only lead to further erosion.  (Sorry guys, but incremental improvements just aren't cutting it anymore) Push whatever boundaries remain (for DSLR) will move them further away from the entry and enthusiast level.  Jump on board with mirrorless and they will be seen as followers not leaders... and that is exactly what they should do until their superior resources allow them to catch and pass the competition.  Or abandon the low and mid-range end of the market and throw everything at full-frame and video.  What am I going to do?  After giving serious consideration to the D7100 my order for an X-E2 went in a few days ago.  That sweet 18-55 "kit" lens combined with the awesome primes and this ridiculous new 50-140 continuous f/2.8 coming out means this system and format are on the move and only getting better.  

Remember, the best camera is the one you have with you.   
        

[sefard]

EOS M with dual pixel
Nikon ff Mirrorless with new mount, but has to come with AF enabled F mount adapters.

[stevenunez]

Variable flange mount is the key- offer new smaller lenses for new smaller bodies and use the variation to use the current DSLR lenses for those who opt to.

[beactivelife]

You guys have the best photo/video channel, thanks for keeping me entertained.

[Razor]

Nikon and canon need to do massive repricing and refreshing of their product line in order to adjust for the changes in camera technology. completely get rid of the 1/2.3 inch sensor cameras. replace that line with $200 or less micro 4/3 sensor cameras (micro 4/3 cameras have a very low BOM cost in the $100 range). This will bring back the entry level market from the smartphones.

For the people looking for more, sell more reasonably priced APS-C sensor DSLR's  ($300-500 range for cameras at the level of the D7100. then for full frame, Price them starting at around $700 for something at the level of the D610, and go up from there.

Aside from most professionals, the vast majority of the market is comprised of people who are more basic and would like better quality but are perfectly willing to settle for a smartphone camera if they cannot get a camera with far better quality for a more reasonable price. They just have to accpet that the sub $1000 market will no longer net them a 500%+ profit margin if they want to sell many cameras.

[asadb]

what would be cool is for canon to build a panasonic gh4 style mirrorless camera. It would be a canon rebel style body with modern 70d/t5i sensor, evf, twist flip lcd, side sd card slot, etc. Plus hoping the cheaper plastic rebel body is gonna be cheaper to make than the eos m metal body.

Then later down the road, canon could extend the cinema line by adding ef-m mount on the cinema cameras. The shorter flange distance will allow for better adoption of legacy lenses.

The mount should be continued as the existing lenses are very good. Basically, people want a better canon mirrorless body.


As far as nikon is concerned, they need to move from the 1 system to a apsc system with a shorter flange distance mount. Then an adapter to adapt nikon slr glass. The tech behind the nikon 1 system can be used to improve the apsc nikon mirrorless.

Also, NOTE to others, that please dont have an expensive add-on EVF for their future bodies unless it will be included in the kit.

[georgestewart]

The solution is simple. Canon and Nikon should build compact mirrorless camera bodies with the same mounts that they use today but with short flange distances, for compactness. Each body would have what amounts to a telecentric optical system that would allow focus with their current DSLR lenses. This optical system could be designed for easy toolless removal so as new mirrorless lenses are designed, maximum optical benefit could be achieved. One benefit of optics in the body would include significantly easier cleaning, and what dust remained would of little consequence - like dust on a lens' front element, it is not generally noticeable on the final image.

[winedemonium]

I was an avid Leica user, but in the digital age, the weak link is the mechanical tolerance in the rangefinder system. Back-focus and front-focus mis-calibrations kill the system. It's a deal killer to have to send bodies and lenses off to Germany just so they work together.

So, I switched back to Nikon (while also picking up a Sony RX1R). Here are my thoughts...

With Nikon I have bought Otus and a couple of other ZF.2 lenses that give me 21-135 range in primes. Fine. With the D810, the quality is outstanding. Back to DSLR gives me the option of zoom too, and VR, which is great. But big. I like the D810 big bright OVF, and I don't like my RX1R's EVF... yet.

So, where is my roadmap? The advantage of the EVF is a true view of what the sensor 'sees', along with peaking and zebras. Ultimately EVF quality may really mimic OVF, and then I won't miss OVF. Goodbye Nikon.

Or, Nikon do what Jordan suggests - give me EVF, or hybrid. Ultimately, when EVF gets through another generation or two, the mirror box will be a 100% liability (shake). Keep the professional build values of the D810 / D4S, but offer a no-mirror EVF option.... or come up with their own A7-like mirrorless. But as Jordan makes the point, if you have a big Nikon lens, the big Nikkor lens is balanced, so it isn't a space/size issue. 

But I will predict this... if Nikon hasn't figured it out by the time Sony has a full A7 system that includes super-telephotos supported by high accurate bursts, specialty wide angles, macros, and tilt-shifts, then Nikon is Titanic. It will take a while to go down, but it will. It may yet come up with a new mount and a new mirrorless system that is serious, but in the interim it needs a a serious, viable mirrorless body for its F-mount Nikkor glass. 

A good discussion you guys. Just a pity it didn't end in an arm wrestle. next time...

[scot_smith]

Great discussion! I am not a pro but agree big time with Jordan! I use a Canon 6D with quite a few mid-line lenses and shoot 80/20% photo/video. I actually love the body size and ergonomics, especially compared to my GH2, but would greatly appreciate the advantages mirrorless could bring. If canon could put in a good EVF and have decent contrast-detect focusing with face detection and focus peaking and a tilt-touch screen, I'd upgrade in a heartbeat. Maybe call it a 6M and improve wi-fi while they're at it. If I had this camera I would also be quicker to upgrade my 50/1.8 lens to a 50L.
This is why I am very intrigued by the Samsung NX1. If the execution is good and has useable ISO 6400 and they add some f/1.4 lenses in a useful range in the next year, I could see me dropping Canon.