Cam & Matt DEBATE Praying to Saints (Catholic vs. Protestant)

Cameron Bertuzzi and Matt Fradd are debating praying to the Saints TOMORROW! To watch the debate, sign up on either of our patreon pages.

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#Catholicism #Saints #Prayer

[afieds]

I walked from Paris to Chartres in 2019, the pentecostal pilgrimage. Mass was Latin Mass every day, and each time I had to cry because of the beauty of it all, in the midst of ugly secularism and the burning down of Notre Dame de Paris

[MonicaJoseph]

Widow here, in my 70's and on fixed income, so I cannot afford to support on Patreon, but would love to see these debates. Perhaps you could do as others do and open to public for a day or a week, with email registration, could increase your subscribers/donors and also give people who are low/fixed income to benefit from content.

[bradinmoab]

In minute four, you guys boldly discussed your tears of joy in church service. I posit that tears of the Saved are a signal that the Holy Spirit is present and expressing Himself.

[sinformant]

The part about not praying to the dead. Well through jesus christ you have everlasting life so maybe a saint would be dead in the term of their human body is, but their soul lives on so arent really dead.

[davison]

The Catholic apologist Dave Armstrong, in his book "A Biblical Critique of Calvinism", when he rebut Calvin on 'Intercession & Invocation of Saints & Angels', finishes the argument just like this:

Invocation of saints and angels follows quite logically and straightforwardly from what we know (as presented in Holy Scripture):

1) We ask others on earth to pray for us (Rom 15:30; Eph 6:19; Col 4:3-4; 1 Thess 5:25; 2 Thess 3:1; Heb 13:18).

2) Members of the Body of Christ pray to God for each other (Mt 5:44; Acts 8:15; 9:40; 28:8; 2 Cor 9:14; 13:9; Eph 6:18; Phil 1:9, 19; Col 1:3, 9; 2 Thes 1:11; 1 Tim 2:1; Phm 1:22; Jas 5:14, 1 6; 3 Jn 1:2).

3) Saints in heaven, filled with grace and united to Christ, are still members of the Body of Christ (Rom 12:4-5; 1 Cor 12:13, 26; 2 Cor 2:5; Eph 1:9-10; 2:19-21; 4:15-16, 25; Col 2:18-19; Heb 13:3).

4) Angels (many passages) and dead saints (Rev 6:9-10) care very much for us, and are just as alive as we are; in fact, far more intensely alive (Mt 22:32; Lk 20:37-38; Rom 8:13, 35-39; 1 Cor 15:54-55).
5) Angels are aware of earthly events (Lk 15:10, 1 Cor 4:9, and many other passages); so are dead saints (Heb 12:1). Moreover, angels are extremely intelligent and can deduce our thoughts and follow our actions.

6) The Bible says that the prayers of the righteous are very powerful in their effects (Jas 5:16-18). How much more the prayers of perfected saints (Mt 22:30; 1 Jn 3:2) and always-sinless angels?

7) We observe both angels (Rev 8:3-4; cf. Tob 12:12-15) and dead saints (Rev 5:8) presenting our prayers to God, and know from other passages that they intercede for us (Jer 15:1; 2 Macc 15:13-14; Rev 6:9-10).

8) Men also talk to dead men (1 Sam 28:12-15; cf. Sir 46:20; Mt 17:1-3; 27:50-53; Rev 11:3) and angels on numerous occasions, and angels initiate discourse with human beings (Gen 21:17-18; when Jesus Christ was born); this is scarcely distinguishable from invocation of them.

9) Petitions made to angels are granted (Gen 19, 32, 48).

10) Therefore, it follows that we can ask either to intercede.

[yeabsiraasefa]

As a protestant this has been a question of mine.

Why was Saul wrong in trying to communicate with the dead Samuel? (1 Chronicles 10:13). (1 Samuel 28:7-19)

** Samuel is a saint, right?. He did intercessory prayer for his people (1 Samuel 7:7-8; 1 Samuel 9:6-10) and God heard him. But once Samuel died (1 Samuel 28:3) being called from the spirit realm was a disturbance for Samuel (1 Samuel 28:15) and a contributor for Saul's demise. How is Samuel's case different from calling on other saints who passed on?

** Yes, God is the God of the living. When a believer dies, his body is dead but his spirit is with the Lord. (2 Corinthians 5:6) But they are not alive as Christ is alive and interceding for us ( Romans 8:34). Since he rose from the dead, he has eternal priesthood unlike other priests that died and can not continue their intercession ( Hebrew 7:23-24 states it clearly).
So, the question is where in the bible do we find the saint's continued intercession once their spirit has passed on?

** Isaiah 8:19 says "When someone tells you to consult mediums and spirits, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?"
- The spirit's sainthood does not seem to have an exception because the comparison is between talking directly to God vs using spirits or mediums. if there are specified exceptions, could you please state where in the bible it is?

***As for Jesus in Mathew 17:3, he is God. Him ordering where the spirit of a human be (on earth or the spirit realm) is his prerogative as God. He brought the spirit of Lazarus from the dead (the spirit realm to his body) and similarly he called on Moses and Elijah to appear.

But in the case of the sear in 1 Samuel 28; I do not believe it is her demonic spirit who brought forth Samuel but God who finally decided to rebuke Saul. I could be wrong but I believe that neither demons nor humans have the authority to tell the spirit of a saint where to be but God. If it is otherwise, could you please give an example from the bible?

- In both Jesus's and the sear's case; the spirits appeared at the location where they were called, implying that they were limited by space. So from where in the Bible can their presence to all who call on them be inferred?

- Also in line with brothers praying for other brothers James 5:14-16 says "Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord." The Question is, if praying to the dead closer to God is a better approach, why does James say call on the elders and not mention the prayer to the saints in the spirit realm?

Lastly, Was Saul wrong because he used a sear instead of praying to Samuel himself?

** The sear used a demonic spirit to call on the dead so it is clearly wrong. And we are told to pray in the Spirit in Ephesians 6:18. So if the argument is that we use the spirit of God unlike her, my question is as such, Is not the spirit already in the role of intercession in our behalf in Roman 8:26?

- So why ask the interceding Spirit to get us in communication with the saints to take his role as an intercessor? Would it not be like sending a messenger to another parity to give him back the message he is sent to deliver?

If you have read this far, Thank you and I would greatly appreciate the reply. Thank you for your time.

[danieloldak]

The Logical Argument for not praying to anyone but God:

1.) God hears prayers(both verbal[see literally any prayer in the Bible] and in the heart & mind[See 1 Sam 1:12-20]) because he is omniscient.
2.) God is omniscient because he is omnipresent. (See Jer 23:24)
3.) Therefore only a being that is omnipresent can hear prayer.

4.) The deceased saints are not omnipresent. (This goes against the Cosmological Argument as it indicates that logically only 1 being can be infinite(leading to omnipresence)).
5.) Therefore the deceased saints cannot hear your prayers.

6.) Added point: When you pray to something, you are praying with the assumption that they can hear you. Thus, it logically follows that when you pray to the saints you agree that they can hear you. However, the argument I made shows that only omnipresent beings can hear the prayers of anyone. Thus to pray to the deceased being means to pray with such an assumption that elevates the attribute of omnipresence(which belongs to God alone) to deceased human beings. This equivocates to idolatry(elevating non-god to God). That is what is logically demanded by this sort of thinking that praying to saints.
7.) Added point 2: No one in the Bible ever prayed to anyone but God. Why didn't the Jews of Jesus' time ask for Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Samuel, David, Nathan, Daniel, Jeremiah, Obadiah, Nehum, Ezekiel, Elijah, Elisha, Micah, etc... to pray for them as it is in the Catholic Tradition? Obviously, Jesus himself did not endorse us praying to the deceased.

*BTW was a former Catholic*

[jimisoulman]

I lived in a Catholic country for 5 years and I became more Protestant in my nascent Christian faith because of it.

One of the many things I found noteworthy was the celebration of village/town feasts and the associated Saint e.g. Saint Peter, Paul, Thomas, Mary etc... Statues of the Saints were carried on the shoulders of the faithful around the village accompanied by fireworks and bands. The emotion and adoration expressed felt to me almost (if not actual) worship. I recalled the story of Moses and the Golden Calf from the Old Testament and felt something was amiss here.

Now I recognise a distinction between worship and veneration. A delicate treacherous line to be navigated in all religious art but with the Saints and their statues I find this line far more precarious than paintings or icons.

Keep up the excellent content.

[louel]

I wonder if you heard of this book called "the way out" and the curable app. Might be interesting to look into if you are suffering with chronic migraines

[urawesome]

“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

🤫

[davidkinkaide]

@Matt Frad: Just because early Christians were praying to Saints (though the argument by most Catholics is that they don’t pray to Saints but only ask for intercession. Thank you for being honest that Catholics have been praying to Saints for centuries.) does not mean it is righteous. Paul rebuked the various churches for not following the teachings of Christ but we’re doing their own thing. So precedence does not justify right action. Catholics have no room to justify wrong doctrine, wrong theology, and wrong teaching just because it was proclaimed correct by the early Church Father’s. Nothing can supersede what Jesus taught and the Catholic Church supersedes the Bible. This type of thinking is beyond reason.

[susanhoyle]

Cameron, if you use blue light blockers, that might help with the migraines.

[minetime]

I am not catholic, I am Christian. I think Catholics add so much stuff (purgatory, praying to saints, not addressing God, etc) that it seems unnecessary. I guess it could be true but I just fined it unlikely. Would Catholics think I am not going to heaven? Do I need to look deeply into it?

[MrWoaaaaah]

There's strong evidence that very early Christians prayed to saints. This practise can be dated to the same period when the trinity, and the canon of Scripture was still being defined.

[JohnBoyX]

Matt's getting Trent Horn on the earpiece. It's gonna be a massacre.

[garfieldmartinez]

I would like to watch these but is there any way to get a trailer or a cut of it to see if it’s content I would be interested in? I’ve seen these debates and it always seems loosely biblical and more on simply referencing a verse, not reading it or tying each topic to the verse.

[nathancarmichael]

Wife looks at the screen.. "They look like twins."

[Saved]

Question. Are Christians who passed, and are now with God, still considered man?

[Iamwrongbut]

Wait, so there’s no debate in this video? Is the title bearing false witness to the contents of this video!?

[localguide]

Why would people 'saints in heaven who experience no suffering bear the burden of listening and working on our prayers which may be about sadness, suffering, torture, rape, murder? Isn't there a great chasm between heaven and earth? How can people in heaven still be involved with a fallen world? It's like exposing heaven to a window into this sinful world of suffering, rape and murder. Doesn't really make sense that heaven would be tainted with such things and prayers about such things.