Pilot Asks Permission to Break Rule

Attempting to land when you know you shouldn't is a new one for me

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[Scott]

I was a bit surprised by this clip. I think the Citation crew knew full well they couldn't land. They were maybe trying to get the ATC to acknowledge their error without coming across as obnoxious. If ATC had have replied "you are still cleared to land" I believe the Citations crew would have just gone around anyway

[efoxxok]

Kelsey
As a retired controller, and also someone who is intimately aware of KSAN airport I wanted to add some insight.
First of all I will agree that the controller messed up on her priority of duties, and that was the primary cause here. Here are some mitigating issues particular to SD.
There is a very large 6 story parking garage just over 700 ft from the arrival end of the runway, it sits about half way up a hill from the runway and is a primary reason for the displace threshold. Prior to its construction the available landing length was about 500ft longer. The biggest issue is the garage blocks the view of runway end for some distance. If this occurred in the afternoon or evening the sun would be right down the runway making it even harder to see someone taxiing into position. It is likely possible that while entering the runway a pilot might not see someone on a 5 mile final as well for similar reasons. The lower to the ground either pilot sits the harder it is to see.
I can see a scenario where the landing aircraft doesn’t see the departing one until inside of a mile. And as you will admit, the initial reaction by the pilot might be “did we miss something” prompting the question.
The question by SWA about the reason probably had more to do with his thinking “okay you messed that one up, he’s going to be out of the way, why can’t I go.
For those of you who write the comments about “here’s a number for you to copy”. I assure you this controller will be getting the ATC equivalent of that call.

[laner.]

"It's like you took a pimp suit and wrapped an airplane in it, " is perhaps the most S-tier description of our livery I've ever heard. Thank you, Kelsey, for making my day.

[flatspin]

Yeah the Citation was taking the tactful route…. He was saying that he knew the SWA was still on the runway and asking what she wanted to do about it. They most likely weren’t planning on landing. The bigger story is the controller forgetting that she had the SWA in position and starting doing other less essential things.

[Dabbleatory]

Is it possible that the "verify clear to land" call was intended as a polite way of telling the controller they messed up and that they had no intention to land even if the answer was yes?

[clintmatheny]

I am a retired FAA controller. A single runway and crossing runways operations increase the opportunities for errors. The safest runway operations are parallel runways for just arrivals and just departures.

[davydatwood]

Perhaps this is just my desire to think the best of people, but I interpret the Citation's "Please confirm" call as a subtle way of saying "Uhhh - lady, there's a problem here, WTF?" Which if true, worked. We will obviously never know but I choose to believe that if the tower had said "go ahead and land" the Citation would have called the go-around on their own.

[chocolatefrenzieya]

Maybe "Confirming clearance to land" was just nicer than, "Hey dingbats! There's a big ole jet on my landing strip!"

[itsnotme]

Well that was interesting. That Controller needs a phone number to call. LOL Glad no one got hurt.

[redkite]

Kelsey,
I can see the Citation pilot asking to verify they are still cleared to land. I think it was a non-invasive way to point out to the controller there was a plane on the runway. Had the controller reaffirmed the landing clearance, the Citation pilot could have come back with, “You have an airplane sitting on the runway. We’re going missed.”
The Citation pilot’s request could be similar to when you are flying off your assigned heading and the controller says, “Kelsey74, verify you’re flying heading 340.” You turn to 340 because you were on a 360 heading and tell the controller you’re sorry and on 340 now. Just my two cents.

[realulli]

If I remember correctly, the Air Canada flight that nearly landed on the taxiway with several airliners on it also asked several times to verify cleared to land, because he was seeing something and wasn't sure. Then someone spoke up, Air Canada went around and didn't create one of the largest disasters in aviation history.

Basically, asking the tower to verify you're cleared to land is saying, "something smells fishy around here, please verify it's clear on your end".

[danandfaith]

Many years ago, I went to Las Vegas to work trade shows in the days when I was in the tech industry. One flight in, the pilot did two go-arounds. After the first one, he told us ATC had a plane just about to take off as we were very close to landing. We climbed back up into the pattern, came in a second time, and ATC did the same thing again. Third time, there was nobody on the runway. The pilot explained that while the planes on the runway were starting to roll, if they had to abort takeoff for any reason, our plane would be at risk of hitting them. On the way off the plane, most everyone stopped to thank the pilot for erring on the side of caution. As it happens, we were about 30 minutes early when first approaching, and ultimately landed at the time we were supposed to arrive.

[AlexandarHullRichter]

I feel like the citation pilot asking if there were still cleared to land was a way of calling the controller an idiot, like 'you cleared me to land and then put someone on the runway in front of me?'

[HFMartini]

Kelsey throwing shade at SWA "looks like a 73 in a pimp suit" LMAO!

[MountainCry]

Every morning when I'm driving to work and pass by the airport, I'm going to see those Southwest planes and think "pimp suit, " and snicker to myself. 😂

[DarbyFoxtrot-]

Kelsey! Stop it! You made coffee come out my nose holes when you described the Southwest livery as a pimp suit wrapped around an airplane. 🤠😎

[douglasmagowan]

Regarding that citation requesting confirmation. Clearly, the controller forgot about them. If they are going to go around, it's not a bad idea to let the controllers know that they are about to be low and over the runway and not clear Southwest for takeoff at the same time.

[xenaguy]

9:40 I don't believe the Cessna was "asking for clearance." I believe he was alerting the controller to the fact that she seemed to have forgotten ... That she had an airliner already sitting on his runway.

[GreggGordon]

As someone that fully trained over 25 years ago as a Canadian ATC but never did it live, I've been confused if something has changed. An airplane only got clearance to land if they now "owned" the runway. Multiple planes would never got clearance to land, and no plane would be told to enter the runway after someone had clearance to land. The same applied to takeoff clearance. Basically, only one plane could have takeoff/landing clearance for a runway. Other aircraft would be told "expect clearance".

I even experienced this when we were taken up in TC100, the Transport Canada plane that was (is?) used to calibrate all landing systems in Canada. Back then a Twin Otter was used, and YVR's northern parallel runway 08/26 had yet to be built. After a tour of the area, when we returned to YVR we were told there'd be a 20 minute hold until we could land. The controller, though, quickly recognized the abilities of the plane and the skills of the pilots and came back to ask if we could land on runway 31 and hold short of the main runway. When our pilot said we could, we were cleared to land and the plane on final for runway 26 (now 26L) and were told of the traffic to our right which was heavy a few miles out. The heavy was given the winds, told of of us as traffic, and was told to expect clearance. When we landed and came to stop in under 1000', our pilot quickly radioed that we were stopped. Only then was the heavy that was about to land cleared for the landing. As we started a 180 turn on the runway to taxi back the opposite way, the slowing heavy roared past us.

I know it's possible that Canada does things a bit different, but since most things are the same world wide I'm curious if this is just a difference or is instead something that has changed since then.

[miguelguerrero]

I was an air traffic controller and the citation’s inquiry was more of a polite reminder to the controller. This was a total screw up on the controller’s part. You once mentioned that an agency examiner would not compromise safety in any way shape or form to meet hiring expectations, it is unfortunate that the same is not practiced by the government. Individual capability must be the sole reason to certify or not certify.