Thoughts on the Charismatic Movement

This video is from my recent Q&A where I discuss my thoughts on the Charismatic movement.

[TheRemnantRadio]

Mad respect bro. I totally sympathize with your pain here.

[lindenmeadow]

I grew up going to charismatic churches, and I can understand why this gentleman feels the way he does. Frankly, I found them to be very prone to flaky theology and constantly pursuing novel doctrines and practices -- blown about by every wind of doctrine, as it says in one place in the New Testament. Or I'm reminded of how in the book of Acts it was mentioned that many Athenians would gather to 'hear some new thing', and I feel the same can be said about far too many charismatics/Pentecostals. In fact, for some that I knew it seemed almost a slogan for them to say that God wanted to do something "new". A professor at a charismatic seminary I attended even remarked that he had known a number of people who had been involved in the charismatic movement in its early days but ended up going back to more traditional denominations because of the lack of stability and the constant push for novelty they saw in charismatic churches. He said that many ex-charismatics he knew complained that in the charismatic churches they had attended, people thought that if something 'new' didn't happen every Sunday then the Holy Spirit wasn't at work.
I also observed many cases where a person or a clique in a church would decide that they were receiving special revelations or 'prophecies' from God that everyone else in the church was supposed to submit to. And don't get me started on all the weird or just plain kooky phenomena that you'll sometimes see among far too many charismatic groups.

[paulthiele]

Great video, Dr Cooper! I am a Lutheran pastor in Australia, and I held a cessationist position on the spiritual gifts up until a dramatic encounter with the Holy Spirit in 2016 which completely reversed my view. Long story, won’t bore you. But it did launch me into a period of attending Pentecostal services and meeting Pentecostal leaders. Having said that, I 100% agree with your comments on the charismatic movement in the broad sense and it’s inextricable link to the prosperity gospel. Unfortunately that phenomenon has made it nearly impossible to have a truly biblical discussion about gifts of the Spirit. The fullness of the life of the Holy Spirit needs to be embraced, but never at the expense of the centrality of Christ in Word and Sacrament. Keep up the good work, Dr Cooper.

[stevelangston]

This “movement” had all but destroyed me. But by the Grace of I’m out. I will stay out by that same Grace.

[lc-mschristian]

Always the scholar. Thank you and God's peace be with you.

[stephenkneller]

Many younger viewers will not be aware how the Charismatic Movement wrought havoc on many churches, including Lutheran churches, in the 70s and 80s. Many of the flock were drawn away from His Church to these touchy-feely, pep rallies. Thankfully, many seen the error of their ways and returned to His Church. Sadly, many are still lost.

[jordantsak]

When someone who is troubled because of his sins is told that he can find certainty and rest for his troubled conscience in some inner experience such as “baptism with the Spirit, ” he is directed away from Christ to his own inner spiritual estate. Such teaching directs the troubled sinner to his own experience as the basis for his certainty and the joy of his salvation and places him once again under the bondage of the Law. This leads either to a self-righteous confidence in one’s own inner experience or to spiritual despair for the person who has had no such experience. Confidence in human experience is carnal security, not the inner testimony of the Holy Spirit, who always directs us to Jesus Christ and God’s promise in the preaching (teaching) of the Gospel, Holy Baptism, Holy Absolution, and Holy Communion.

[Outrider]

A point to remember: there is a difference between a soft cessationist and a hard cessationist. A hard cessationist believes that God does not AT ALL work supernaturally. A soft cessationist believes that
1.) Yes, God CAN work supernaturally and
2.) Yes, God MIGHT work supernaturally, but
3.) Not in the sense that the apostles did (through a person endowed with a gift of healing), and
4.) Not as the focus of Christianity, and
5.) Also that miraculous events make up only a tiny fraction of Biblical history.

I'll put it this way, per the analogy of Rev. Jonathan Fisk: Do I believe that an angel may come out of nowhere and get you out of the way from a falling piano? Absolutely. But... am I going to make looking for angels to guide my way the base of my Christian walk? Absolutely not.

And while I don't agree with John MacArthur on everything, his point which was made in his book CHARISMATIC CHAOS still stands: every charismatic movement in church history that was post-apostolic either wound up with 1.) gross false doctrine or 2.) immorality among its leaders.

[ldxxelq]

I was saved through the ministry of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, October 14, 1969. I am a practicing Missouri Synod Lutheran, but I attend Charismatic prayer meetings weekly. The Holy Spirit moves mightily in those meetings despite our seldom breaking ten people present. I come away more blessed and renewed frequently than I do from Sunday worship, except for the Lord's Super and the praise music. I am a Charismatic, and yes, we can stir up controversy in a Church because we tend to be more active than most of the rest of the congregation.

[rhogr]

I grew up in the Charismatic/WoF movement. Pretty much bought into all of it (except for “having an experience” -was never really big into that). One day, a family member introduced me to Justin Peters’ “Clouds Without Rain” and it pretty much destroyed my Charismatic faith and made me Reformed. I’m not Reformed today because I don’t agree with the theology but I’m thankful to my family member (and Peters!) for helping to bring me out of Charismaticism. A side effect of my upbringing and the abusive theology I believed is that, today, I pretty much don’t believe in the active supernatural at all.

[villarrealmarta]

Two amazing “little” books to get your hands on. “The charismatic confusion” and “the Corinthian catastrophe”

[angelbonilla]

Questions: 1-Wasn't many of the original AALC congregations Lutheran charismatics, like Trinity Lutheran (California)? 2- What do you think about the official Pentecostal-Lutheran and Roman Catholic=Pentecostal dialogues and have you read some of their documents? 3-What do you think about the Lutheran Churches in Ethiopia, Tanzania, Madagascar, ect with their strong Charismatic influence?4-Wouldn't a very dogmatic cessacionist pastor o members also split or destroy a church?

[awakeTooOften]

Can you explain more about how people are hurt by the charismatic movement?

[oddlycreatetiff]

Dr. Cooper has the patience which I strive for when discussing the charismatic movement 😂

[sergiomendoza]

Hey Jordan Cooper. Just wanted to say thank you for the work you have done. I am now going to join a 3 streams anglican church. Anything you can share about that?

[theconsistoryofthecoelc]

Good video. I think it is important to draw a distinction between Absolute Cessationism and the Classical Cessationism view. The term (and explanation) of Cessationism was originally used by Calvin and adopted by the Early Lutherans. This Classical Cessationism, believes in the ceasing of the Prophetic and Apostolic office, but allows for the Holy Spirit to still work when and where He wills in supernatural ways.
Dr. Cooper, your explanation in this video would line up perfectly with Classical Cessationism. I think a big problem today is that many people don't understand the distinction between Lutheran Cessationism and the more Hard Absolute Cessationists and they usually conflate the two.
We need a different term for Absolute Cessationists so that people stop thinking that that is what Cessationism is.
Similarly, I know Continuationists who draw a distinction between a mild Continuationism and the more radical Pentecostal, NAR Sensationalism. We need to start drawing distinctions between Cessationists and the um... Amiraculousists.

[danielrenfrow]

What about bands like CityAlight or Sovereign Grace Music? Do you think they’re music is good?

[JeremyBelter]

I am sorry you were hurt. Thanks for doing this. I just see it this way. True faith is not needing continuing revelation rather just trusting the word and sacraments. I am surprised to see a WELS saying he is gifted with the spiritual gifts but not sure what that means.

Could the one greater than him have been talking about second coming of Christ and not Luther?

[l.f.davila]

Hey Jordan, what's the colection of books at your right?

[titianmom]

This is an old vid, I know, but I attended a Charismatic church for many years and the Lord blessed me there and I matured spirirually though the teaching, etc. I do believe that God visited His Church in a powerful way. People were being baptized in the Spirit sovereignly in many denominations. In fact, the movement began in the Catholic church. Our church had members from many denominational backgrounds, including Lutheran. Fortunately, we were blessed with great teachers from Bible colleges, etc, which gave us a solid foundation in traditional Christian truths, so we were able to steer clear from most of the abuse and flakiness going on in parts of the movement. We had a great group of godly elders, thankfully.

That said, I agree 110% about some of the popular, unbiblical theologies that popped up--truly hurtful, damaging, etc.

But, isn't this similar to what happened in the first century? Christ birthed a Church, and almost immediately, Satan begins introducing confusion and bad theology through self-promoters and rebels who thought they knew better than Paul and the Apostles.

Every time there's a move of God in history, Satan is right there trying to lead people away from truth. Why should the Charismatic movement be any different?

Where the movement went wrong in certain parts was in the lack of a solid foundation in Biblical teaching. We needed "something old and something new", but sadly either out of ignorance and immaturity or out of hostility, far too many jettisoned or remained ignorant of historical, sound teaching.

Edit: forgot to share a favorite saying amongst the elders and my husband who eventually became a pastor: "It's good to keep an open mind about the things of God, but not so open that your brain falls out..."