The Potter Analogy in Romans 9: A Response to Chris Date

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[dustinpaulson]

Kudos to Chris for playing a huge chunk of your position. That's rare.

[derekatkins]

You’ve treated Chris with great respect. I would have been less gracious (my shortcoming!) after hearing such nonsense as he put forward. I’m trying to understand how anyone can be comfortable holding such incompatible, illogical positions. It isn’t reconciled by “mystery “. It’s error. We serve a God of love, not just sovereignty. He’s a God of justice and grace and mercy, and so much more. We’re told the greatest commandment is love. Love cannot exist without a real choice. Calvinism turns everything upside down.

[thearamsay]

I am also an author. Not well known, not living off my writings, but my books are on Amazon. I have yet to be questioned by one of my characters as to how I created them and wrote their story. If one of my characters did question me, I would either be having a really interesting dream or I’ll be heading for my local shrink. But there’s a big difference between a character and a real person. We are real people who know about the real God. My characters don’t know I exist. Heck, sometimes I wish one of my characters would jump out of my novel and question me. It’ll be something to do while we’re locked down here in Canada due to Covid. And it would get me out of some serious writers block. Ha ha
Unlike characters, though, we have knowledge of our author. And what about other metaphors, such as God dealing with Israel as a bride who turned out to be an adulterous wife, or the lamb and his wife? Calvinist say that in the Jewish wedding ceremony, the bride was informed of her fathers choice to betroth her to a husband. What they seem to forget is that when the prospective groom offered her a cup of wine, all power is in her hands. If she doesn’t drink from that cup and gives it back to the young man, the wedding is off. That’s apparently how these weddings went.
There are just so many who so ever will come verses in the Bible, I can’t imagine what Calvin must’ve been smoking in order to come up with this theistic determinism. Only God knows the horrors of hell. Why in the heck would he predetermined some to go there? It doesn’t make any sense.
When Jesus told his disciples you have not chosen me but I have chosen you, he was talking about choosing 12 particular people to spread the gospel. What has that to do with so-called particular redemption? By the way, I do believe in particular redemption. Each person who responds to the gospel is particularly loved by God. Those who don’t respond to the gospel are also loved by God. They just won’t ever get the benefits of it. And that’s on them, not on God. He provided a way of salvation for all. All means all. It doesn’t mean all the elect. It means all. The fact that many will choose to reject hurts him as much as it would hurt one of us if our children or a best friend rejected the God we love. He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked. The command to choose whom we will serve is so often repeated in the Scriptures old and New Testament, what could John Calvin have been smoking in order to miss that? There’s so many commands to choose. Choose you this day whom you will serve. Choose to be an instrument of sin or an instrument of righteousness. Choose life. Come let us reason together, says your God. For why should you die? We all know these verses. What kind of acid was John Calvin tripping on, anyway?

[boluwadekujero]

I am reputed to be quite patient with people but I am not sure I measure in grace up to you. Chris is clearly evading the point. He does not seem to be having difficulty in understanding the issue, he’s rather just determined to distract from it. He spends so much time arguing against what’s not in view.

[leftstanding]

Great breakdown! Your work and labor on this point is greatly appreciated! <3

[jeffallanday]

I like Chris Date and he has really helped me with the Hell debate. I am not a Calvinist but I am on Chris's side on the Hell debate.

[jessetoler]

When Date said that there were no strings attached to Frodo I just about fell outta my chair, but God must not have decreed it! Chris...pay attention here...tolkien is the "puppet master" and the ink spilling from his quill are the "strings".

[hughwanzakaffi]

Points for Chris for trying to incorporate LOTR!

Unfortunately, the analogy doesn’t improve compatiblist’s position.

This was my problem when I was a “Cal-minian” attempting to embrace my professors and their teaching of determinism and genuine choice.

It was only when they attempted to define genuine choice that I realized it was really not a choice at all. But at that time, I assumed that I was missing something because they were so much more advanced than me.

[saraircrew]

I will never understand why calvinist try so hard on one hand to defend there position on theistic determinism and on the other defend the position that they still have responsibility. What difference does it make. Just own it!

[billburkey]

I am confounded by Chris' explanations. I see what he is trying to say, but if EVERYTHING IS DETERMINED....EVERYTHING IS DETERMINED!!!

[jesuslives]

The author analogy BAFFLES me. It's so bad. There is nothing forcing Frodo to destroy the ring?!? THE AUTHOR DECIDED literally every action the character does and every word the character says!

[amadeusasimov]

I highly doubt that Paul would have wanted us to take an analogy he gave, and create an all encompassing theological view like Calvinism out of it.
He goes on to tell Timothy an analogy of vessels, and tells him "if anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonorable, he will be a vessel for honor..."
So....what, Paul changed his mind on his analogies since he wrote to the Roman church?

Thanks for the video!
It's always so insightful to hear you tackle these challenging questions.

[landonrhea]

Seems ironic that Chris's position on hell is against eternal punishment because of what he thinks it would imply of God's character, but Chris is OK with the implications of calvinism on God's character...

[christking]

Seems like a nice guy but he missed the entire point. He just reinforced the robot metaphor to be a spot on metaphor

[BornToPun]

Dr. Flowers, I agree with your view of God's sovereignty. I also like the fact that Tim Stratton refers to God as a "maximally great being". In my estimation, God is so great and so sovereign that He can allow for libertarian human freedom yet still accomplish His purposes.

[kenfithen]

Chris seems to be a highly intelligent gentleman. But I have to admit that on several occasions I literally laughed out loud at his attempt to prove his belief. Over the last two months, I have listened to close to 100 hours on the subject. I feel sorry for Chris as he twists himself in pretzel like fashion trying to make Calvinism make sense. The problem is, it just doesn't!

[ACTSVERSE]

The usual Calvinist double-speak is off the charts. In Calvinism, are humans ever the primary cause of any will or act that for thoughts and behaviors that humans are associated with? When a thought crosses a man's mind, is the man the primary cause of that thought or not? If not man, then who? God? If God, then God is the cause of that thought. If God is the cause of that desire, that emotion, that action, then it is not man but God who is responsible for the desire, emotion, action. In Calvinism, is God ever responding to anything that had its origin in man---whether thought, word, desire, or deed? Or is God at all times the primary cause for ALL things? Date just can't stop flip flopping.

[beowulf.reborn]

To take the Author analogy further, imagine you pick up a book and start reading it, and in it, the characters are all horribly evil people, and they are brutally raping and murdering children, and all of this is written with exacting details vividly describing the torment of those children ... would you honestly walk away from that book thinking, "Wow, those characters were wicked, foul, and disgusting." or would you walk away thinking, "Wow, whoever wrote this thing is wicked, foul, and disgusting." ?

[a.k.]

Calvinism: "Proclaiming the good news that God probably hates you for 500 years!"

[dw]

*GOD MERELY
Reformed author Robert R. McLaughlin
-quote
"God merely *PROGRAMMED* into the divine decrees all our thoughts, motives, decisions and actions"
(The Doctrine of Divine Decree)

John Calvin
-quote
Hence they are merely *INSTRUMENTS*, INTO WHICH God constantly *INFUSES* what energy he sees meet, and
*TURNS* and *CONVERTS* to any purpose at his pleasure. (Institutes)