John Piper VS J.I. Packer: Compatibilism or Contradiction? | Leighton Flowers | Calvinism |

Dr. Leighton Flowers, Director of Evangelism and Apologetics for Texas Baptists, compares and contrasts John Piper's views on Sovereignty and Free Will with J.I. Packer's views.

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[lmorter]

Piper Packer picked a peck of peppered paradoxes. How many peppered paradoxes can Piper Packer pick?

[primeobjective]

Calvinism is unjust because one group is damned forever for FULFILLING God's immutable decree outside any human will or exertion, while the 2nd party is gifted eternal life in heaven for the exact same thing.

[AlexanderosD]

The Calvinist God: "I judge you to be condemned before you were born! How do you plead?"

The consistent reprobate: "Uh....God, YOU made me do this..."

Calvinist God: "Who are you to talk back to Condemned! Condeeeemned!"

[KevElder]

Had a conversation with my Sunday school co-teacher who is (or who I discovered) was a Calvinist. He said: God chose only those He wants to be saved. I said: no - God wants all men to be saved. He replied: yes, that’s correct. I didn’t have a reply! The idea anyone can hold to both beliefs completely shut me down. Not just a contradiction or paradox, but a conversation ender.

[jamesbarksdale]

Leighton, thanks for your positive influence in this area of Sovereignty and Free Will.

I'm not sure I'm a Provisionist, but definitely not a Calvinist. Probably more Orthodox than anything.

I grew up in a Presbyterian megachurch in Atlanta, and don't recall this ever being discussed or preached. Maybe I was just too young and interested in other things.

Even through college and seminary it wasn't a big issue, at least not for me, although it was discussed.

But it's become more of one over the years as I've pondered the topic.

I've come to see Calvinism, taken to its logical conclusion, as a distortion of the Christian Faith.

However, most Calvinists don't carry it that far. They may be theogically TULIP, but you would never know it by their words and actions. Then, maybe many are simply content to live with the contradiction as a mystery.

[EskimoClay]

Thank you for your labor in the word and doctrine, brother!

[KISStheSON...]

Gaslighting 101:
manipulate (someone) using psychological methods into questioning their own sanity or powers of reasoning.

This is how a person becomes a Calvinist and also how a Calvinist becomes a gaslighter.

[Orthocurious]

Thanks for your work Leighton, excited to watch this after work today.

[stephenmorrison]

I love Packer! It was that exact book that lead me to begin my exit out of Calvinism!

[MyRoBeRtBaKeR]

How can a God that is light and no darkness at all ordain all good AND evil?

[JohnQPublic]

The Very Special and Wonderful Counsel, after lengthy and rigorous investigation, has determined Calvinists are “too old” and “feeble minded” to withstand the trials of critical examination, therefore, they have recommended all Calvinist be let out to pasture so they can peacefully fade away into the sunset of the horrific mess they’ve made of the Bible.

[duanehensley]

One can clearly see where John Piper goes wrong as well. As is typical of Calvinists, they fallaciously appeal to mystery when they see an actual contradiction within their system of belief. As a very wise person once said, "Mystery is a sign of transcendence; a contradiction is a sign of error."

[Magnus]

It seems like Calvinism can lead to learned helplessness.

[mattgates]

@soteriology101

At the 29:11 mark, what interview is this w/ Hernandez and Stratton? Can you provide the link? Thank you in advance!

[galaxyn]

1:00 "With friends like these, who needs enemies?"

[dw]

*THE NECESSARY CONDITIONS FOR CHOICE*
1) In Calvinism - every decree must entail NECESSARY CONDITIONS. For example - if it is decreed Calvinist_A will drive a blue pickup truck at noon tomorrow - then that blue pickup truck must exist. One cannot drive a blue pickup truck if it does not exist.

2) Similarly - a NECESSARY CONDITION for a CHOICE is the existence and availability of *MORE THAN ONE OPTION* in order to constitute having a CHOICE. It is logically impossible for Calvin's god to determine you will CHOOSE [X] where [X] does not exist for you to CHOOSE.

3) Where Calvinist_A is decreed to (SIN at TIME-T) then the option to (NOT SIN at TIME-T) is NOT granted existence. In such case - the option to (NOT SIN at TIME-T) simply does not exist for Calvinist_A to CHOOSE.

4) It is logically impossible to CHOOSE something which does not exist for one to CHOOSE

5) Additionally - in Calvinism - every impulse within the human brain is also predetermined. And the human brain is granted NO SAY, NO CHOICE, and NO CONTROL over any impulse that will come to pass within it. In such case - even if an OPTION did exist for the human brain to CHOOSE - that brain would not have the CONTROL necessary to make that CHOICE.

CONCLUSION:
In Calvinism - for every human event - and every human impulse - there is never granted more than *ONE SINGLE PREDESTINED RENDERED-CERTAIN OPTION* And the creature is granted NO CHOICE in the matter of what that option will be - and no ability to refrain.

Therefore - humans are not granted CHOICE in Calvinism.

[fernandosviewpoint]

I like the definition of the word contradiction which I read in a dictionary that I have. It says that contradiction is an affirmation and a negation that mutually destroy each other. If I understand correctly, he who believes in two contradictory concepts simultaneously has none.

[peterbengtsson]

What you say Leighton is what I basically found out discussing with Calvinists their teaching of sovereignty and free will. My conclusion was and still is if Piper's Calvinistic view is right, man has no responsibility and therefore can't be judged. I do however better understand Packer's view. At least then we are responsible, we just do not understand how it is possible. Kind of an appeal to mystery.

Christ love! ✝️

[JacquelineHahn]

If God is the author of contradictory concepts which He then makes ‘friends” would not the god they speak of be contradictory? Does this then mean that the God they speak about has two diametrically opposing natures? This sounds so very ying yang to me.

If as some Calvinists end up saying that we must accept we just can’t understand the heart of God why then did God spend so much effort in making Revelation to mankind?

When I start to view the Word and Will of God through Calvinistic eyes I feel that everything becomes scripted and arbitrary like I am in some play with a role assigned to me that I can’t even understand the meaning behind what I am saying and doing. What then is the point of me?

[joshbohn]

Just because we believe in the Triune God does not exempt us from logic and reason.