Jesus Complete Myth?

Jesus Complete Myth? | Richard Carrier PhD

The Question from Patron Joel Pearson,
"I often hear the apologetic argument that Jesus can't be compared to all the other demigods because the length of time between his supposed place in history and the first "historical" narratives is shorter than we have records of for older figures like that. What is the best response to this? Is it just a fallacious argument (personal incredulity / cherry picking / non sequitur) or is there some validity to this reasoning?"

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#Jesus #Myth #MythVision #mythvision #mythvisionpodcast #mvp #dereklambert

[Arminius]

Carrier might be the one guy who made me actually question the existence of Jesus.

[ernestschultz]

When my grandfather was a boy he actually witnessed the contest between the steam-shovel and John Henry.

[liberalinoklahoma]

It is incredible the progress that mankind has made in the last hundred years, yet too many of us are still tethered to the past and its superstitions.

[Stupidityindex]

The bible is humor, parody, sarcasm, slur, Roman state propaganda.
How many Johns & Marys do you need, for god's sake?

[gregjones]

There were 39 jewish messiahs. A pattern of failure seems evident. Why we worship failure and its associated mythology is beyond me. No proof, no truth.

[wrinkleneckbass]

Does it really matter if Jesus existed or not? As an atheist, I can accept the fact that Jesus might have been a rabbi running around with a small following, or maybe he was a myth. Either way, there were no miracles or resurrection and he certainly wasn't a divine being.

[PoeLemic]

Thank you for having Dr. Carrier on MVP. I always love his analysis on topics.

[doggiesarus]

I got and read On The Historicity of Jesus by Dr. Carrier. It is well worth the read, but does have a lot of statistics-- I like that because it is actually showing the rigorous scholarship backing it, but as a neophyte, who hates math-- I like to hear the information coming from his mouth and other mouths. This is very important information in a world hypnotized by incredible stories.

[integrationalpolytheism]

Derek, when I clicked on this, I feared it would be yet another sneering insult session towards advocates of the mythicist hypothesis. I am happy to say you continue to take the higher path on this issue, unlike some other similar YouTubers.

[commonsense]

If James was Jesus brother how come we don’t know his date of birth? If 500 witnesses why don’t they know where buried? 😅😅

[darthvirgin]

the GOSPELS.

basically a FANFICTION work by some ancient jewish greek FANBOY (mark) of what he imagined was the earthly adventure/epic of his god-hero, then plagiarized and edited by THREE other ancient jewish greek FANBOYS (that’s we know of) to push their own theology.

[Mr_Stav]

Just read his book, people! :)
On the Historicity of Jesus...

[readyfireaim]

Israel's Polytheistic Background and the Ugaritic Texts

Yam or Yamm (who becomes Yaw/YHW), from the ancient Semitic word meaning "sea, " is the name of the Canaanite god of rivers and the sea. Yam was also the deity of the primordial chaos. He represented the power of the tempestuous sea untamed and raging. Also called Nahar ("river") he additionally ruled floods and related disasters.

In West Semitic mythology, Yam was given kingship over the other gods by the chief god El. When Yam's rulership turned tyrannical and he possessed El's wife Asherah, the storm deity Baal (Hadad) challenged and defeated Yam in a titanic battle, ending with Yam cast down from the heavenly mountain Saphon.

The mythic sea dragon Lotan, whom Baal also defeated, was closely associated with Yam and possibly an aspect of him. A similar sea-demon appears in the mythology of many cultures. The biblical monster Leviathan is seen as related to Lotan, and his dwelling, the sea, is called yam in the Hebrew Bible.

Yam's defeat by Baal (Hadad) parallels the Mesopotamian legend of the storm god Marduk's victory over the primordial sea goddess Tiamat. Numerous other parallel myths have been noted by mythologists and religion scholars, often interpreted as representing *the triumph of heavenly order over primeval chaos.*

A primary source for our knowledge concerning Yam is the Epic of Baal, also known as the Baal (Lord) Cycle, which describes the storm god Baal coming to ascendancy in the Canaanite pantheon.

In the beginning, the kindly but distant El, the father of the gods (Elohim "Sons of God"), bequeaths the divine kingship to Yam. The sea deity, however, soon turns tyrant and oppresses the other gods. Asherah, the mother goddess, attempts to reason with Yam, but he adamantly refuses to relent. In desperation for the welfare of her children, Asherah finally consents to give Yam her own body.

Sitting in council with the other gods, Baal is outraged at this idea and determines to rebel against Yam. Hearing of Baal's plan, Yam (Yaw/YHW) brazenly demands that Baal be handed over to him for punishment, sending emissaries to the Assembly of the Gods who show no respect even to El. Baal secures weapons from the divine craftsman Kothar-wa-Khasis and proceeds to defeat Yam in a mighty battle, rescuing Asherah from her fate and liberating the other gods from Yam's oppression, thus becoming their lord.

However, Baal in turn proceeds to be defeated by Mot, the desert god of death and infertility, who accuses him of having killed the great sea serpent Lotan, closely associated with Yam. Baal himself is rescued by the efforts of his sister Anat, so that he may rise again and reign supreme in an apparent re-enactment of the annual cycles of rain and drought.

Biblical echoes:

In the Biblical tradition, the polytheistic mythologies of the sky and storm gods conquering the primordial sea demon is replaced by the idea that God reigned supreme from the beginning.

Thus, Genesis 1:1 states: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Yet, in the following verse, even before the creation of light, an echo of the older myth of the sky god creating order out of the watery chaos may be seen: "darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters."

Psalm 89:9 reiterates the theme of God's sovereignty over the chaotic deep: "You rule over the surging sea; when its waves mount up, you still them."

However, Psalm 74:14 preserves a tradition which reflects the Hebrew deity Yahweh's acting in Baal's role, by defeating the sea monster Leviathan (Lotan): "It was you who crushed the heads of Leviathan and gave him as food to the creatures of the desert."

The Book of Job 3:8 seems to refer to a day when the tyrant of the sea will wake from his sleep, speaking of "those who are ready to rouse Leviathan."

Isaiah 27:1, meanwhile refers to God's victory over Leviathan in the future: "In that day the Lord with His severe sword, great and strong, will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent, Leviathan that twisted serpent; He will slay the reptile that is in the sea."

The bronze "sea" (yam) which stood before the Temple of Jerusalem was about 15 feet in diameter.
The Hebrew word for "sea" in these verses is yam.

In ancient Israel, God's sovereignty over the waters of chaos was symbolized in the Temple of Jerusalem, as in many other ancient temples of the Middle East, by the presence of a large bronze "sea" which stood placidly near the temple's entrance.

The story of the prophet Jonah involves an episode at sea in which Jonah is blamed for a life-threatening storm by his pagan shipmates after they cast lots to discover who is responsible. He is thrown overboard by the sailors in an effort to assuage his angry deity, Yahweh, and is swallowed by a great fish who seems to be a type of Leviathan. The story may hint at a practice followed by Levantine fisherman involving human sacrifice to Yam in times of extreme danger.

In some Christian interpretations of (Genesis 3:15), the serpent of Eden is seen as equivalent to Leviathan, whom the Messiah (or the Archangel Michael), like Baal, will one day vanquish: "He will crush your (the serpent's) head, and you will strike his heel."

A relevant passage in the Book of Revelation reads: "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world." (Rev. 12:9)

Later, Revelation describes the final destruction of Satan, after which the declaration is made: "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea." (Rev. 21:1)

[MrMZaccone]

The development of cargo cults puts this to bed rather nicely. Even a well-documented individual like Bruce Lee has been nearly deified in a ridiculously short period of time.

[RolanRoyce]

If Jesus popped back alive then he wasn't really sacrificed, now was he? After he was back alive, the sacrifice was rendered null and void, he would have had to keep being crucified until he gave up and stayed dead, maybe cut his body up in pieces like Osiris, that got him. So that's the dilemma for Christians, they can't have the resurrection AND the sacrificial lamb analogy in the same story, which one are they going to drop?

[wordscapes]

I don't mind people saying Christ was a Myth. It pisses off the evangelicals, who have done SO much damage to LGBTQ folk. Their unbridled rage brings real joy to my heart.

[Outspoken.Humanist]

It seems highly plausible to me that the Jesus myths were based around the memory of a real individual. An itinerant Jewish preacher in modern apocalyptic and Hellenised Judaism, called Yeshuah, who was executed by the Romans for sedition, increasing his fame.. Everything after that is fiction, deliberately incorporating myths and legends from other religions in order to add credibility. I think that some of the events of Jesus' life and some of his sayings were so well known that they had to be included in the various 'gospels', even though they contradicted the teachings of the new religion but everything miraculous was simply invention, necessary to match the marvels known about other gods in the Roman world.

[benjamintrevino]

Of the actors below who played Jesus, who do you think was the dreamiest?

1)Juan Pablo Di Pace
2) Joaquin Phoenix
3) Jim Caviezel

[mickcostigan]

Many hundreds of cults had a Jesus they pretty much withered on the vine. The Romans wanted a new faith for those survivors who now called themselves Jews 8 or 9 legions in that part of the world was expensive in the end it was the Romans who fell into their own snare

[sebgur]

Very nice discussion. Very nice to be able to discuss a subject that usually triggers so much emotion and so much BS, but here to do it calmly, rationally, without arrogance and meaningless overconfidence. Well done!