Trans athletes in women's sports: Is this fair?

How much of an advantage to trans women have over cis women? How much does hormone therapy do about it? In this video we look at what the scientific literature says about this.

(Beware: graphic content.)

The paper about serum androgen levels I discuss at 2 minutes 50 seconds is here:

The paper about testosterone levels I mention at 4 minutes 20 seconds is this:

The paper about hormone treatment I discuss at 7 mins 10 seconds is here:

The paper I mention at 7 mins 55 seconds is this:

And Estimates for the number of transgender people in Brazil are from here:

0:00 Intro
0:26 Intersex Conditions
3:17 Testosterone Levels
5:02 Trans Athletes
7:08 The Effects of Hormonal Treatment
9:51 The Question of Fairness
11:23 The Relevance of Entertainment
13:49 The Actual Problem
14:54 Sponsor Message

[cheekcake]

I never got the fairness argument. If we are to say, “Sports is unfair anyways, why try to make it fair now?” then why not remove the division between men and women’s sports completely? The reason for the separation in the first place is because we acknowledge the physical advantages men have over women. But if you’re going to accept these and still go on with it, then why limit it to trans athletes?

[MedlifeCrisis]

Congrats on taking on a ‘controversial’ topic and conveying the complexity of the science as opposed to taking a ‘stance’ as is often expected from commentators. I note that people on both sides of the conversation have a tendency to over-simplify and reach for easy answers, which sadly are not readily forthcoming. I use the same term to describe athletes btw - freaks! But the physics conference follow-up burn was perfectly on brand 🔥😂

[Tser]

I'm a dressage trainer and therapeutic horseback riding instructor, and equestrian sports stand out as not being segregated by sex, even at the elite level. On the other hand, there's one big unfair advantage that determines a person's high level success at these sports, and that's money. There are exceptions, of course, but starting out wealthy is a big indicator of whether you can ascend to the top level. Competitive sports are not fair in many ways, and I love the concept of meaningful competition instead.

[springbloom]

Im a female. I box. I fought a 17 year old boy that I could break over my knee like a dry stick. About all I remember is a yellow flash and the canvas hitting me in the head. He hit like a truck; one of two times in my life Ive been KTFO. Its much more than muscle mass and gross strength. Its about the way your body is put together. Well trained, experienced, fit and 15lb heavier and I couldn't hit as hard as that little noob on my best day

[vangc]

"Athletes are biological extremes. Fairness has never been the point of these completions. They are really more like freak shows! Kind of like Physics Conferences." LOL - I love it.

[deirdre]

In martial arts it is axiomatic that a good, large fighter will defeat a good small fighter. There are exceptions, but this is exactly the reason there are weight classes in these sports-- they create a level of fairness. And I won't get into how the gambling aspect helps drive this system.

[elijeschke]

I find the story of Tom Dempsey really illustrative here, especially when compared with Michael Phelps. Tom Dempsey was a kicker in American Football who, in 1970, kicked a successful field goal from 63 yards (57.6 meters) out. This record stood for over 40 years, only being beat in 2013 by a single yard. Tom Dempsey also only had half a kicking foot.

He was born with no toes on his right foot (and no fingers on his right hand). This mild disability gave him the ability to kick a football straight-on rather than needing to use the side of his foot. The advantages that would give are obvious. He had a custom shoe made to fit his foot, but investigation by ESPN sports science determined that that hadn't given him any more advantage than a normal shoe would a normal kicker.

Even so, people were pissed. Noted union-busting piece of shit, Tex Schramm, openly said that he thought there should be an asterisk by Dempsey's record. And in 1977, a rule was made specifically saying that anyone kicking had to wear a normal shoe, no matter how much of a foot they did or didn't have. Tom Dempsey had a unique body that let him do something incredible, and people really didn't like that.

Contrast this with Michael Phelps. Michael Phelps is a mutant who was genetically engineered to swim really fucking good. He has a huge torso and short legs (relatively speaking, he is 6'4"), a wingspan longer than he is tall, hyperextended joints that let him move like a mermaid, huge paddle feet, and he even produces half as much lactic acid (the thing that makes your muscles hurt when you work them hard) as his competitors.

Michael Phelps and Tom Dempsey both worked incredibly hard and pushed their unique bodies to the peak of athletic ability. But one of them is celebrated, and one of them had the guy who invented the Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders and their hotpants say that his record didn't count.

[markbrown]

In the video you explain that the advantages decrease over time with the administration of hormone therapy. I think this situation is compounded by the fact that, for the most part, sports are a young persons game. Very few athletes stay relevant even in middle age. The average age of medal winning gymnasts at the 2021 Tokyo Olympics was 20.6 years old. Athletes don't have the time to wait for the playing field to level. I also guess, but don't know for certain, that the biological differences between the physical performance of men and women is most pronounced at younger ages, the age demographic where they athletes are competing.

[deanniematheson]

There was a comedian somewhere that suggested we should have one "normal" person off the street compete as a "control"... just to up the entertainment value.

[vivianriver]

The part at the end about how sports would incentivize unethical behavior brings to mind the Futurama episode where Lela tells fry about the time that steroids became mandatory for all Blernsball players to make the game fair.

[Rheologist]

I don’t think your argument at 10:19 about fairness really follows/makes sense. Especially after showing that the research suggest that trans women maintain a physical advantage over cis women. Even though your point that it’s technically unfair that any given individual has a physical advantage over another is true, I think we still want to avoid letting trans women compete with cis women because in the ultra-competitive world of elite sports trans women with such advantages will likely categorically rise to the top of their ranks and beat their opponents. People want to be aware of and praise the top performing biological females (cis women) for what they can do within that biological category

[gnuwaves]

I feel this only ever goes one way. Like how many ftm are being represented in the Olympics?

[prenssen]

Science as it should be. Not just throwing numbers and studies at the viewer, but actually understanding the method used, number of subjects tested and context of the study to weight the real compatibility of the resulta with the whole population. Keep up with the great content!

[tsbrownie]

"... too many opportunities for unethical behavior..." is exactly why pro sports will still exist.

[landwand]

You had me laughing at, " They're really more like ... freak shows. Kind of like physics conferences."

[sanghoonlee]

I live in Seoul, Korea, where in 1988 Griffith Joyner set a women's 100-meter dash record of 10.49 seconds that remain unbroken to this day. But that same 10.49 seconds, which no other woman has been able to match for 36 years, would rank Joyner at around 3000th in the world as a male athlete. The athletic gap between men and women, especially when it comes to muscular strength, is quite substantial. World's best female tennis couldn't beat the world's best 300th best male player, etc.

[rinrin]

To be fair, I would love to see professional basketball with different height groups. Not only would that allow for shorter men/women to compete professionally, but it would also be quite refreshing, since different height teams would have to utilize very different techniques.

[smack]

One issue not mentioned is bone structure which is a huge factor in why men are more powerful runners than women since their gait is straight versus a woman's gait is more rounded (hip structure allows more circular motion of the leg as it moves). No discussion about VO2 Max, fast twitch fibers, bone density, skeletal structure, and many other factors that contribute to the differences among men and women. A woman's fertility cycle also becomes an issue when she cannot devote an entire month of training. I thought these studies were incredibly simplistic in their view. You cannot limit a study to one or two variables and claim little difference but rather it must be viewed from a holistic approach that takes in all the differences among genders which cumulatively contribute to the differences. Since men lose so little with hormone therapy and they have a distinct advantage in sports in general, the unfairness is limited to the females. A "good" high school male runner can easily beat a world record holding female runner every time. I once compared Florence Joyner's world records for the 100 m and 200 m to high school males and she would not have ranked in the top 400. Those extremes cannot be overcome by simple hormone therapy treatments hence making female athletes unable to compete at these levels.

If we are going to dismiss the notion of fairness, then we really don't need women's sports, paraolympics, special olympics, or any other category other than just sports. I am not in favor of the 'games just for the fittest' which would be limited to only male sports. I do believe there is an argument to be made that we must have distinct categories to offer a space for those who can compete at the highest levels just not against their male counterparts.

[adamtt]

"So maybe the solution is in the end we all just do eSports."
I CAN'T

[auntiegravity]

Another sport where females tend to do as well as, and even better than males at times, is rock climbing. I'm just adding this to the pot.. I love how someone actually addressed the complexity of what is "fair" in sports, and what is meaningful.

For the record I was a downhill mountain bike racer (I was much better at working with gravity than against it) I was also 35 when I started. This sport belongs to 19 year old males and I don't care.. I'm a HUGE fan of these wonderful freaks... my god they are fast and fearless. I love that.

I was proud to be a part of this sport and showing women, even older women, that it's do-able. I've even seen older male cancer survivors enter races and I love this too. There is a bond between all of us.

Age is definitely a huge factor. There were no age classes in women's DH mountain biking. I was competing with women half my age who lived in the resorts I was racing at. (They also had a training advantage)

There was a controversy as well, with the first trans woman competing with the women in this sport. I wasn't at the pro level, so I had no problem with it. In fact, she was cheering all of us women in sport class at the end of the course, This was something I'll always remember.

If I were at the pro level, I don't know what I would think, to be honest.

One problem I have is when those with any kind of advantage stick around in beginner, sport, or expert classes when they should be competing in the sport, expert, or pro levels. (sandbagging)

It's also true that some advantages may be because of funding.. I was lucky to be sponsored and had a great bike and mechanics in my corner. Sometimes it's about funding and access to resources...and now we can talk about Formula One and Nascar racing.. (Danica) and get into an entirely new discussion.

Most of all, as a former competitive athlete, there has to be some meaning and entertainment value. For me, I was happy to just be on the race circuit. I was more of an ambassador to the sport. The primary entertainment value belongs to males in their late teens and early 20's. And I'm there for that.

At the same time, this sport taught me so much and is accessible to women and older athletes as well. We all hung out together. I'll never forget that.

Sponsorships can also happen for more reasons that being biologically exceptional. I was obviously not sponsored because of my great speed or technical abilities, but to be an ambassador for the sport.

The point: It's complicated. LOVE this video. Thank you, Sabine!!