The Gospel of Thomas and Q

Scholars had long argued that the authors of Matthew and Luke used a lost gospel of Jesus’ sayings known as “Q,” in addition to using Mark’s gospel as a source. One argument against the existence of Q was that no such “sayings gospels” were known. That changed with the rediscovery of the sayings Gospel of Thomas at Nag Hammadi in Egypt in 1945. The Gospel of Thomas, like the hypothetical Q, contains few narrative elements and consists almost entirely of a list of teachings attributed to Jesus. John Hamer of Toronto Centre Place will compare Thomas and Q to consider overlaps and relationships of the sayings each text preserves.

Save the date and join us live to participate in the discussion and to ask questions to our lecturer during the Q&A.



#lecture #cofchrist

[salt]

Mr Hamer always explains his topics very well. Much appreciated.

[smroog]

EXCELLENT !!! EXCELLENT !!!! So interesting to listen to Mr. Hamer. Can not fathom the amount of time and effort he has put into his studies !!!! And I get to learn so much because of this !!! I am a very lucky man. Thank you !! Thank you !!!

[neilhundtoft]

Regarding the order of authorship: At 46:45 the banner reads: “In this case, Matthew has the shortest and most jarring teaching – without apologetic softening, adding qualifiers like 'many' [as in Thomas]– and is arguably therefore the closest to the original.” an observation for which Hamer claims Saying #4 provides evidence. But going from a soft and gentle statement to a harsher and judgmental one can equally be a sign of later editing. Taken together with the common sense principle that added verbiage to a saying is also evidence of editing, consider Thomas' Saying #65 and its synoptic parallels. The Gospel of Thomas says: “Since the farmers knew that he was the heir to the vineyard, they seized him and killed him. Whoever has ears should hear.” Then comes Mark in year 73 or so, declaring: “They took him, and killed him and threw him out of the vineyard. What will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the vine-growers, and will give the vineyard to others.” (Mark 12:8-9.) After another ten to fifteen years have past, Matthew picks up the theme “Therefore when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine-growers? They said to him, 'He will put those wretches to a miserable death, and lease the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the produce at the harvest time.'” (Matthew 21:41) We move from a brief, dispassionate observation in Thomas about the death of the innocent to an extended condemnation of scathing vitriol and retribution in Matthew. What is the most likely order of their authorship? By my lights, the calm of the Gospel of Thomas most likely preceded the storm clouds of Mark and Matthew. The Gospel of Thomas, therefore, most likely reflects an authorship earlier than either of them.

[QUICKSILVER]

Thank you for another brilliant lecture! Your lectures just get better and better.😉The side panel gives the viewer reference providing the illustrations. They add to understanding the material as well as often giving reference materials. BTW "Q" has recently been used (100+yrs) to be short for "Quartermaster" in military jargon.

[neilhundtoft]

Among the more striking differences between the Gospel of Thomas and Quelle is that none of the apocalyptic themes found in Quelle are found in The Gospel of Thomas. Helmut Koester's foundational research in “Ancient Christian Gospels” points to layers of redaction to Quelle over time. “Of the seventy-nine sayings of Thomas with Synoptic Gospel parallels, forty-six have parallels in Q, but the typical apocalyptic perspective of the later redaction of Q does not appear in any of these sayings.” (Helmut Koester, “Ancient Christian Gospels”, p 87) Their absence from the Gospel of Thomas suggests its earlier authorship and that Quelle is in fact subsequently reflecting the apocalyptic hopes of a later developing Christian community. This order of authorship can also explain how the earlier softer, gentler sayings found in Thomas could have become the brief, more harsh and strident expressions we find in Quelle's warnings of the coming judgment. Thomas and Quelle brought different messages. The terse bluntness of Quelle's message could justify a briefer, more in-your-face, expression of an earlier, softer version of a saying in general circulation. The derivative position of Thomas relative to the synoptic gospels has been an unproven assumption throughout this presentation. It ain't necessarily so! Peace.

[ChrisMusante]

6:50... just as I crank up my volume. I love non-edited videos - they're 'honest'. 👍 ty

[robinstevenson]

SUGGESTION: Since Thomas is such a popular topic, it would be interesting to do a whole separate lecture on its redaction history. Early Thomas may have been quite similar to Q. Later versions may have been increasingly "gnosticizing."

[garymensurati]

Always excellent analysis. Honest and heartfelt. Thank you John. Blessings to all.

[marcusdoolette]

Wonderful lecture as always. Thank you so much for the information and all the work you guys put into this.

[tctc]

Thanks for another Wonderful Presentation

[klightlightmusic]

Thank you John. The Gospel of Thomas has always resonated with me as a truer voice of the Jewish Mystic, (perhaps a Gnostic) of the man called Jesus. It feels like his intimate voice. Please do a lecture dissecting each teaching there, the metaphors and the inherited wisdom handed down through the ages, From Egypt, Greece, Hinduism and The Far East. You are a treasure.

[robinstevenson]

Would also love to see you do a lecture on the earliest (mid-first century) non-Pauline Jesus traditions, focusing on the Didache and earliest core sayings in Thomas, as well as the very oldest sections of Q. They may fascinatingly reveal a pre-Pauline Christianity.

[peterhook]

"mind over matter" . Your imagination and creativity is very powerful and can solve many problems...and its free. Have faith in yourself. Once you discover your power..you will be disturbed and marvel (at your ability and wherewithal..as well as others) and you will be empowered. Nice teaching.

[Nooneself]

Seek, and you will find... May be in reference to the saying " the kingdom of God in WITHIN you. Best wishes

[JamesBeanSantMatMystic]

William D. Stroker's book, Extracanonical Sayings of Jesus, Scholars Press, is a great resource gathering together Q and Thomas parallel material from the vast world of apocryphal sources. Very useful for the Thomas reader.

[mattandkim]

46:08 mark also says in ch.10 v.31 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.

[gringoquenocomecuy]

Another great discussion on a sensitive topic.

[johnerikstacy]

Listening to your lecture made me think of learning about sets in math. I did a little looking on the web to refresh my memory of the symbols used in sets and logic and came up with this: Q = [W¬M] ∩ [L¬M] where M is Mark, W is Matthew and L is Luke. It is meant to read Q is the parts that don't come from M and are common to both W and L.

[Nooneself]

"Poor in spirit" in early Christianity is a reference to not having an overgrown ego or thinking you're better than others. Best wishes

[KriyaYogi]

Well done! Thanks for this comprehensive presentation. Helmut Koester's research from his book Ancient Christian Gospels would be a nice addition to the information given here. He basically proves that the Gospel of Thomas derives from the earliest version of Q prior to its redaction. In other words, he proves that the Gospel of Thomas preserves the purest form of Jesus' teachings/sayings.