Fill Storage Tank from the Bottom vs Top Ram Pump

I installed my personal ram pump storage tanks with the delivery pipe filling the tanks from the bottom. This caused an uproar of naysayers. Turns out this is possible and works well. In this video I show that the concept not only works but does a good job at filling a tank.

I thought of another issue that is slowing the top fill: The delivery pipe is always the height of the bucket taller than the bottom fill line. This means that the start of the test the pump is delivering 1.5 feet lower than the top fill test.

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[JoeMalovich]

Where to begin....

First, atmospheric pressure has no measurable effect at these heights.
Pressure in a column of water is p = ρ g h (the following stuff is from engineeringtoolbox)
where
p = pressure in liquid (N/m2, Pa, lbf/ft2, psf)
ρ = density of liquid (kg/m3, slugs/ft3)
g = acceleration of gravity (9.81 m/s2, 32.17405 ft/s2)
h = height of fluid column - or depth in the fluid where pressure is measured (m, ft)

Also we need to establish a fact, a ram pump will pump more volume at a lower back-pressure.

The only variable Seth is changing here is the height is the delivery pipe column of water "h". If the delivery pipe is looped over the top of the bucket (and there is an air-break at the peak of the loop) then the back-pressure on the delivery pipe is "h" or in this case we will say 8 feet. That comes out to about 3.46 psi of back-pressure. If the delivery-pipe fills from the bottom up and the beginning height is "h - bucket" or about 6.5 feet the back-pressure will be 2.82 psi. This means that the bucket will fill faster at the beginning and slow down to fill at the same rate as the top-fill method as the bucket fills up. I'm far too rusty with my differential equations to figure it out in a more mathematical definitive manner.

Your testing methodology as you stated has too many inherent variables to make this test valid. An additional flaw that may have altered your variables is if the delivery pipe had an air-break at the top of the loop or if it was acting like a siphon down into the bucket, this would have resulted in identical test results. I couldn't tell if there was a siphon or not, having the water port out of the delivery pipe at the rim of the bucket would be a better methodology.

Now perform the same test with your 55 gallon barrels up on the hillside. You must have an air-break at the top too. The longer test time, larger variance in height, and a steady drive-pipe fill will result in better data.


You could alter your existing ladder setup by replacing the bucket with a 3" pipe 8' tall and repeating the test, this will exaggerate your results.

[leavingmarks]

Great diplomacy sir. The gravity head pressure always increases as you increase height. So a bottom fill would be more efficient than a fill tube going over the top. keep up the great work. I follow you so don't slow down on posting.

[BAGUBAou]

With a one minute difference... that is a wash in my book. Thanks for this video and all of the others. I quite enjoy them.

[gordonwilloughby]

I think the difference is that when filling from the bottom the pump only has to raise the water as high as the water level in the tank which will be lower than the hose at the top of the tank until the water runs over the edge. since it will be easier to fill from the bottom until the tank is full it should pump faster and easier at the lower level. I believe you showed that as the water is pumped higher the amount of water is reduced in one of your tests so this works the same way

[Databyter]

It seems to me that it is more efficient to fill from the bottom. The reason is that assuming you are filling the entire tank, and say it is a 5 ft high tank, as you begin to fill it, you have less resistance working against the flow. Less head pressure, or elevation to overcome to get flow in your delivery spigot. If you fill from the top, you still have to defeat the full pressure of the top height of the tank, even if you are just starting to fill the bottom. You have gone too high, to work at a lower level. Both will fill the tank, but the bottom fill will fill it faster. If you have a float system and are just keeping it topped off, the difference is negligible because you are always near the top. But if you are filling cattle tanks that have not been used in a while, and are empty, you are working against less head pressure by filling from the bottom, so your FLOW will be faster when the tank is more empty, and will slow down as it becomes full. The top fill will start out slower, and remain slower regardless of the fullness of the tank. Both work providing you can achieve the height. But bottom fill is more elegant if you have the holes and valves for it. Databyter

[carlospadilla]

@Land to House
Well done! Great video I really enjoy them all!
There are several ways to check for the water level on the top bucket, without having to go up there (avoid unnecessary risks)

1.- Installing a mirror on the top and zoom in with the camera
2.- Leaving a light flotation item like a toy ball or something
3.- Adding a vertical clear plastic pipe or hose on the side connected to the bottom of the bucket.

For maintaining the water level in the source bucket, you could just open the supply valve just enough to keep it full to the top, a little spill won't impact your water bill, oh wait!... You're not paying any water bill! hehehe

[johnc]

•Bottom filling Setup.

When the pressure exerted by the weight of the water in the Tank (in the bottom portion) becomes greater than the atmospheric pressure, the water flow rate in the Tank is no longer constant. It will start to decrease, as the water level in the Tank rises.

[lenwhatever]

This test seems to say that bottom fill will be faster... which makes sense. The distance to raise the water with bottom fill will always be less with bottom fill than top fill. So filling an empty tank from the bottom will be faster than filling from over the top where the lift height is not only constant but higher. A really good illustration of this would be a "tank" made out of a 10 foot high 4 inch PVC pipe. The bottom of the tank could be 3 feet above the ground for a total height of 13 feet to the top. The one point I would make about the test is that the top feed hose seems to have gone over the top and down to the bottom of the tank but it should have ended at the top of the tank to prevent siphon effect from interfering with the result. The weight of the water in the part of the hose in the tank is helping pull the water up as well...
The downside of bottom fill, is that the system is more vulnerable to damage to the fill pipes causing the loss of all the water. However, even with top fill, there is still the possibility of loosing all the water if the outlet feed system springs a leak.

[goldmagnet]

I think thats the expected result, as all the water is not lofted over the top rim. Effectively it starts off filling the bottom of the bucket, and then a little higher with each cycle. Filling from the top, you are always filling the top of the bucket. The increase in flow (and quicker time) at a guess should be equal to (FlowRate at bottom of bucket height - FlowRate at top of bucket height)/2

[normsykes]

​ @Land to House, if only a single "tank" is being filled the fill time will be quicker from a bottom fill as the "head" slowly increases to match the "weight" of the riser pipe.
However if multiple tanks are ganged together, the top fill method will be quicker as the combined "head" of the multi-tanks reaches the equivalent single tank weight sooner.

That is to say, 3x 1" bottom fill tanks applied / induces the same "head" as a single 1-3/4" pipe. Therefore the top fill will be quicker for multi-tank setups.

[SynnUnsworth]

i wonder if you moved the bucket rather than the hose (so the hose height is constant) you might see those times get closer. good to see this in action though, really helps with looking ahead in our system (which is rocketing away to the stage we have to turn it off when we leave the farm else we get flooded) we're trying to see if theres a way we can actually use that to our advantage in the future so one IBC tank will fill then overflow forces the water towards the other IBC (obviously one will be higher in the system than the other) not sure it's going to work but we have a Y section installed now so shut off is possible if it doesn't work.

[smaggies]

I have tested, with using a Toilet Float Valve to supply water, but not with entering under tank storage, we need to remove best of all variables for a good test. Thanks, I wish to do some test, just need water supply, Creek, Stream ect.

[patrickhoffmann]

Great video, and great results! And I can help you with the mathematics (I actually alreday sent you my mathematical derivation some weeks ago). The Ramp Pump Equation is: Delivery-Flux = Efficiency × Drivepipe Flux × Drivepipe Height / Delivery Height. We do not know the Efficiency and the Drivepipe Flux, but we can assume that these are constant in the two experiments. The Drivepipe Height (or Head) can also be assumed constant (you tried to keep the level in the bucket constant). The only variable between the two experiment was the Delivery Height. In the first Top-Fill-Experiment you had 12 feet (lets assume your 12' ladder is exactly 12 feet high and the upper rim of the bucket was on the same height like the end of your ladder). In the second Bottom-Fill-Experiment the height was changing, from 12' minus Bucket-Height to 12'. Lets assume the height was 1 foot lower, on average. That means you have pumped the water to 12' in the first Top-Fill-Experiment, and to 11' (on average) in the second Bottom-Fill-Experiment. In the first Top-Fill-Experiment you had a flow rate of 1 Bucket per 885 seconds (14 minutes and 45 seconds are 885 seconds). For 1 foot less, I would expect to fill the same bucket in 885 seconds × (11 / 12). You get this equation if you combine two Ram Pump Equations from above with the two different Delivery Heights. And 885 × (11 / 12) gives 811.25 seconds, or rougly 13 minutes and 31 seconds. You have measured 13 minutes and 45 seconds. Voila! A quite good matching between theory, mathematics and your experiment, if you keep in mind all the assumtion I have made!

You also got great comments too! Most of the comments remarked correctly that filling from the bottom is more easy/efficient because you start with a smaller height. When the bucket is full then you have the same height like you had to overcome from the beginning in the top-fill scenario. That is all confirmed by the above mentioned mathematics and theory. Btw. atmospheric pressure does not play a significant role here, because it is (nearly) the same on the source bucket and on the delivery bucket.

[bFORCe]

My question is, can you fill a water tank from near the bottom not using a pump. The water tank will be slightly lower than the gutter on the roof where the water will come from. Im just wondering if this is an ideal set up over the inlet being at the top of the tank?

[zo-fasuar]

Very grateful from MIZORAM apart of INDIA

[jamesbillington]

As long as the delivery pipe is constant that wont be a factor. If anything filling from the bottom means that there is additional back pressure in the delivery pipe from the weight of the water in the tank/bucket. Which might actually make the pump more efficiant.

[gregu]

couldn't you use a toilet bowl valve connected to your hose in some way to keep the supply bucket consistently full within your desired range? That would remove the human variable from that aspect of your experiment. It might also eliminate bubbles getting into your drive pipe. On another channel, someone used this mechanism to keep his dog's water bowl full.

[jllaine]

filling the bucket from the bottom means you start with a foot (or more) less of lift you need to ovecome but end with the same amount of lift. so you get a little head start.

[rdp]

we have 2 storage tank one from ground and the other one is 15 m elevated can i use that to transfer water from ground to elevated tank, please advice thanks...so that no need pump to transfer

[nitinpatwardhan]

Hi,
I had made a ram pump.
It is not working.
Let me know that input water line is 50 feet long is naseserry.
Waste vole is not working. The water just flow away continuously from it .
Please explain why?