Catholics & Salvation | Doug Wilson and James White | Sweater Vest Dialogues

Pastor Doug Wilson and Dr. James White discuss Catholicism and Salvation in this episode of The Sweater Vest Dialogues.

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The Sweater Vest Dialogues are presented by Canon Press.

[Kyle_Hessler]

If you keep making these, we the public will come to expect more.

[spiderwebbz]

Doug. I know it’s 3 years later but these discussions are so beneficial to hear. I could binge these for hours. Make more now!!!

[EmmanuelGoldstein]

It never ceases to amaze me that in all these years of debating Catholics and for all his supposed study of the Catholic Faith James White still peddles in the falsehood that indulgences are somehow a mechanism for salvation 45:52

It isn’t and never has been. It is a means of remitting the <temporal> punishment of sin. The Catholic Gospel is the Gospel of St Paul. Trent’s formulation is soundly Biblical whereas forensic and imputation is foreign to St Paul. This one and the same Catholic Gospel is the Gospel of the early ages of the Church the one of the Fathers. They had salvation without a man made gospel of 1500 years later.

Who in the first 1500 years of the Church taught this idea of forensic imputation? Or of faith alone as taught by Luther? Name one Church Father, Saint, Doctor, theologian, etc who taught or even hinted at it that could justify Luther’s doctrine?

Listening to two Protestants discuss the Catholic Church is like listening to the women on The View. My apologies to The View for the comparison.

[henrytucker]

What comes across here is the difference between how White and Wilson see the Gospel at work in people's lives. For Wilson, he believes that the reality of the gospel (Christ's atoning work on the cross) is what saves everyone-- including saved Catholics-- whereas White puts more emphasis one what a person "says" about the gospel being what actually saves them. Because, for White, a correct understanding of the gospel is a necessary evidence of the actual saving power of the gospel in a person's life. So, if you can't articulate how you were saved (to White's satisfaction based on his exegesis of Scripture, of course), the presumption is that you're not really saved-- even if your life exhibits some fruits of salvation. I was Reformed for over 40 years, but always took Wilson's approach. The fruits of the Spirit are: love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. White evidently wants to add "and proper articulation of a biblical soteriology." This is where you get into another distinction I noticed in the Reformed community: Faith used as a noun vs. verb. Faith as a noun tends to emphasize what God has done-- objectively (Wilson's view). Faith as a verb tends to emphasize how we express what God has done (White's view). In other words, "Faith in our Saving Faith" is a lot different than Saving Faith. This was a major controversy in the New England Puritan churches, by the way. The whole "old light" vs. "new light"/halfway covenant/"experimental" (experiential) conversion vs. the more objective standards of who's in and who's out. I think Wilson is taking his Reformed view of God's Sovereignty to its logical conclusion: if Christ imputes His perfect righteousness to us, then our proper articulation or even understanding of what has happened to us is incidental to our salvation-- not the cause of our salvation, or ultimate proof. It is enough that the person is baptized, professes the Nicene Creed, and exhibits the fruits of salvation (which faithful Catholics do). It is God Who saves. White will not accept this definition of a Christian. Thankfully, his party has ALWAYS been the minority in Christendom... even among the Reformed. In fact, if one itemizes White's entire theology, his party occupies a bubble in a ghetto of Christendom.

[jinaforjesus]

I so deeply love these two brothers in Christ and am grateful they are taking the time to do these conversations on such important theological issues. I also appreciate their modeling of Christian brotherly love and fair, dignified, scholarly dialogue on issues they often do not align on. God bless you, your families and your ministries!

[systemrevolt]

Two of my most treasured brothers. You men keep the content coming. You’re leading by example as ministers on how to engage fellow believers that have different opinions and convictions, but ultimately both holding to the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

[EricBadong]

Love these dialogues. May I suggest that their videos be a split-screen of the two of them instead of alternating shots? I think it would help in providing more context to their responses to each other when we see their reaction as the other speaks. Thanks.

[MarmadukeFan]

Doug’s explanation of intellectual workarounds sounds like it’s more gracious to the intellectual Catholic than the simple-minded Catholic. Not saying the argument is wrong because of that, only that it sounds like an inversion of what James might say about simple Catholics who trust Jesus and don’t really get Catholic doctrine.

[Truthsayer]

I love how the camera goes to White's face whenever Wilson says something weird.

[wesreidt]

This is a great discussion. I am a Protestant but gleaned a great deal from "The Everlasting Man" and "orthodoxy" by Chesterton.

[EdgarNazario]

I appreciate two grown men having a mature and well-balanced conversation. I pray I would also grow in my patience and charity with others for the goal of presenting the gospel to others as well.

[nateaggie]

As a recently converted Catholic myself, I enjoyed this discussion and often enjoy listening to Doug Wilson quite a bit. I think Doug is certainly among God's favored children and will have a place in Heaven, but I disagree with aspects of his theology and his understanding of history. But I would love a restoration of Christendom with the inclusion of the various faithful denominations of Christianity. How about this? I will pray for your everlasting salvation, and I will hope that you will do the same for me.

[southwife]

My dear Brother Doug, I NEVER have to look up your vocabulary. I, like you, speak English. That is one of the very satisfying things about your broadcasts and writings; savory, satisfying and joyful things, they are. Many thanks.

[jonathanvickers]

White's face when Wilson says, "It's spiritual wisdom that smells like Jesus." 15:20

[McRingil]

Precisely because we trust Jesus and His commandments we believe in the teachings of the Catholic Church

[ianwarner]

Jeff Durbin introduced me to both Douglas Wilson and James White... this is like watching Jeff's dad and stepdad have a conversation at thanksgiving

[smylecracker]

God bless you both and God bless Mr. Chesterton. I, for one, cannot read his works without seeing Jesus on almost every page. “Angels can fly because they can take themselves lightly.” GK Chesterton was light hearted. Far more zealous for his God than for the Roman Gospel. He was practically self taught and thus self deceived. Praise God he wasn’t saved because of his intellect and saved in spite of his sin. Blessed is the man whose sins the Lord will never hold against him.

[lightfire]

Haha James face when Doug said “smells like Jesus”

[zekdom]

27:38 - Me, whenever I see White and Wilson engage in dialogue

28:32 - Heh, that was great.

29:47, 30:10, 38:52 - Puritans and Chesterton

30:58 - CS Lewis and multiple rooms of Christianity
32:03, 33:07, 33:26 - Does Catholicism include Lewis’ view of multiple rooms?

36:21 - spiritual light and confrontation
37:02, 37:39 - peace, mortal sin, and Rome
37:52 - assurance

42:45 - BB Warfield

48:41 - necessity vs sufficiency of grace

52:47, 53:25 - assumption of evangelism or fellowship

[NikkiSchumacherOfficial]

Oh my I have been looking forward to this.