Was There a GREAT APOSTASY!? w/ @thoughtfulfaith2020 & @TheCounselofTrent

LDS apologist describes the LDS position on the Great Apostasy. Trent Horn pushes back and lays out the problems with this view from the Catholic Perspective.

[missys]

I was raised Mormon and converted to Catholicism. I was taught explicitly that the "true" church was removed from the Earth and the authority to bind and loose had to be restored by Joseph Smith.

[saralyg]

This should be its own debate!! This central question brought me to the Catholic faith.

[jamesshaw]

I don't think Ive ever seen such utter nonsense so well defended before.

[daniallemmon]

It’s funny how the LDS church doesn’t treat their own apostles (that supposedly have the same authority as the original 12) with any sort of authority. That’s why they can brush off the controversial things they say and don’t like anymore lol

[Sousabird]

Jesus: "On this rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it."

Joseph Smith 1800 years later: "MMM ackshulally..."

[ConversioCajunus]

Gotta love how every argument of his is just “oh, cmon, we don’t ACTUALLY believe that, you’re just fighting a straw man!” but when he explains what they believe it’s the same thing with extra steps while avoiding saying what would destroy his argument. Without lies, Mormonism dies

[ItsSnagret]

This should be its own debate. Jacob still did a great job despite being asked questions outside of the debate regarding the divinity of the Book of Mormon.

[jeremysmith]

Apostasy: "The abandonment or renunciation of a religious or political belief". If by a great apostasy Mormons only believe the ability to teach public revelation was lost then why use the term apostasy? The idea of a great apostasy is Protestant idea that predates Joseph Smith and was most likely in the air when Joseph Smith started his movement.

[cadenza]

Jacob’s personal belief - that the authority to deliver public revelation was taken but that the church wasn’t - doesn’t match LDS church teaching. Joseph Smith reported in his story of the First Vision that God told him His church was nowhere to be found on the earth and that in relation to the many Christian denominations, “all their creeds were an abomination.” As a young Mormon in the 80’s and 90’s, I was taught that “the Lord’s church was lost from the earth.”

The “Bicentennial Proclamation to the World, ” released in 2020 by the current president of the church, says the same thing. “…following the death of the original Apostles, Christ’s New Testament Church was lost from the earth.”

Also, LDS don’t believe John the Revelator was translated. The teaching is that he was not taken from the earth and is still here, just like the Three Nephites.

[jakeney]

To say that the Church fell away blasphemes Christ and The Holy Spirit as the gates of hell prevailed so that makes Christ a liar and the Holy Spirit failed to guide the Church in Spirit and Truth. Also it makes Paul a liar as the Church fell away and is no longer the pillar of Truth

[gregorybarrett]

Trent seems to be profiting from the opportunity to practice and grow in the virtue of self control. Well done, Trent; it is when it is difficult that it is both efficacious and meritorious.

[justinDOUG]

Mormons: "This is what we believe."
Everyone Else: "No let me tell you what you believe"

The audacity

[frankiecampos]

This guy has the exact same speaking cadence as Karlo Broussard

[sandstorm]

This Mormon fellow seems amiable and respectful, which I greatly appreciate.

However as an ex-Lutheran, the Great Apostasy is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. The original Christians taught by Jesus, the Disciples, and Apostles were supposedly incorrect in what they believed and true Christianity didn't exist on Earth until Protestants and/or Mormons courageously re-discovered the true faith? That's hogwash. It not only implicitly claims Jesus failed at his mission in coming to Earth, but it's reading history in reverse in order to protect the personal presuppositions of splinter groups. If you read history chronologically, Catholicism makes way more sense than the previous two options.

Kind as he is, the Mormon man at the end explicitly said the Catholic councils were partly true and partly of Satan. So was the Catholic Church true or evil? It sounds like he's insinuating it was imperfect or wrong and therefore obsolete and needs to be overlapped by something else. He's doing the "everything is valid" routine that post-modernists do, which again is amiable, but neglects to answer the fundamental question: is there an objective truth or is there not?

[EruIluvatar]

Mormon apologetics does not mind being dishonest or using obfuscation to win an aegument.

[contraheresy]

Jacob being dishonest as usual about Mormons believing John was translated i.e. taken up to heaven like Moses; this is an ad hoc argument to deal with a major contradiction in the Mormon worldview: the death of all the apostles leading to loss of divine authority but John the apostle never died. Mormons like Jacob can choose to believe John was taken up to heaven like Moses to get around this major contradiction but then they would need to reject D&C 7 and explain what gives them the right to reject it. D&C 7 clearly states the apostle was blessed by the Lord to "tarry" i.e. remain on the earth until the Lord comes in glory i.e. the Second Coming.

[HowdyHowdens]

The Mormon view of Catholicism is so narrow. They forget there were other apostles that started the other eastern churches that carried on unadulterated.

And would you believe they’re most aligned with Catholics and not mormons??😱😱😱

As a Mormon I grew up hearing “Joseph smith restored the church and this is how they used to worship” I’m ashamed that only in my late 20’s I realized that the early apostles didn’t sit in puritan style pews listening to Protestant hymns

[realmadrid]

The way Hansen explains the great apostasy here puts him in direct contradiction with scripture, though. As Jude 1:3 states “contend earnestly for the faith having been delivered once for all to the saints.” So in solving a much bigger meta level problem (not really tbf you could press him on the church fathers and it’d probably create the same problem) he creates another contradiction between Mormons and the scripture they say they uphold

[Alexander-frkk]

You should organize a date and time when ALL believers simultaneously give praise to God!!! That would be so powerful…

[SamHollidayV]

Whoa apostasy = lack of authority for public revelation. Absolute cope.