How does Reformed theology view the future of Israel compared to dispensationalism?

How does Reformed theology understand the future of Israel? And how does this view compare to the theology of dispensationalism? From one of our live events, Derek Thomas and Stephen Nichols discuss God’s great plan of salvation.

[irishchocolate]

I use to be an Arminian, Pentecostal dispensationalist. I am now a Reformed Baptist. I probably agree more with John MacArthur than anyone else even though R.C. Sproul has been my favorite teacher for a long time.
My problem is when many Reformed brethren claim Dispensationalists teach two ways of salvation. One for the church and one for Israel. I went to an Arminian, dispensationalist Bible college and not once were we taught two ways of salvation. Jews still had to repent and trust in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. They don’t get to enter the Kingdom just by being ethnic Jews. So I don’t know why many reformed scholars insist dispensationalists are teaching a different way of salvation for Israel compared to the church.
Dispensationalists do recognise a distinction between Israel and the church as far as eschatology is concerned and that there are certain promises made to Israel that can’t be fulfilled by the church.

[emmanuelndakah]

When Christian's began to talk about Israel in theological sense, the question I ask myself is who is Israel? Is a piece of land in palastine? Or the spiritual descendant of Abraham (Jews and gentiles) through faith in Christ Jesus.

[ccchhhrrriiisss]

I have read the Bible from cover-to-cover at least 40 times since becoming a Christian. I wasn't really raised in a "church" either (whereby I missed having some sort of coercive influence from denominations, different schools of thoughts, etc.). So, by the time I learned words like "dispensationalism" and "reformed, " I really was at a good point to critique those concepts and terms by what I had known and read via Scripture (sans preexisting biases) than many other believers that I knew.

What I read from Scriptures -- starting with the Old Testament -- was a lineage between Adam and Abraham whereby human beings began to lose their faith in God. It resulted in a worldwide flood followed by a God-ordained confusion at Babel. After this, people generally clamored for whatever "road" they fancied. By the time of Job, Abraham, etc., those who followed the one true living God were fewer in number. Yet, Abram was one of those.

Abraham BELIEVED God -- and this was credited to him as righteousness. So, God made a covenant with Abram (now "Abraham") and his promised descendants. He promised him both descendants that would be MANY NATIONS and a specific portion of land on the Earth flowing with milk and honey. This covenant existed more than 400 years before the Covenant Law of Moses.

The seed of Abraham was exiled in Egypt and rescued when the fullness of God's purpose had come. A Covenant Law was given to the people who were a part of this covenant. Over hundred and even thousands of years, the seed of Abraham often meandered from this covenant. The promised land suffered (physically) as a result. The people suffered both physically AND spiritually. Ultimately, the elect were carried off into captivity. So, they went from captivity in Egypt to captivity in Assyria, Babylon and, later, Persia.

A remnant was returned (*as prophesied) to the land that was promised to them. They rebuilt the city and Temple. A 12-year-old Jesus later referred to subsequent rebuilding of this Temple as "my Father's House." This house was commissioned by a gentile unbeliever (i.e., Herod's Temple). Yet, the land was chosen by God. Two altars were built on that site. It was the very place where Abraham was told to sacrifice Isaac (Mt. Moriah) and where David would later purchase and build an altar following judgment from having commissioned a census of the nation of Israel. Mention of that altar is historical too. It is likely the very "altar of David" mentioned in the Moabite Stone.

Yet, many of those people had taken their eyes off the Covenant as they were essentially held captive in their own land by the Romans. A few years later, God sent "Elijah" (i.e., John the Baptist) to "prepare the way" before the ministry of the Messiah. The people of the covenant expected a conquering king who would "restore the kingdom of Israel" and rule from Jerusalem. Yet, they received a humble God-in-the-flesh manifestation of love -- God providing his only begotten Son as the sacrifice for atonement.

Jesus was God incarnate -- the physical, human manifestation of God born as a man. He walked through that promised land and explained the true kingdom of God. Yet, even his disciples still misunderstood when and how his kingdom would come. When he died, they were seemingly confused by it all. In Luke and in Acts, we read how the disciples -- before and after Jesus died -- expected that the KINGDOM OF ISRAEL would be restored (see Acts 1:6). Jesus answered, "It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority" -- meaning that God has "fixed" this to happen in his own time.

After reading through the Scriptures (and Romans), it is clear that God is not finished with the physical seed of Abraham. Everything in Scripture was centered around this covenant that God made with Abraham. While we are free from that law, the physical seed of Abraham is still participants in that everlasting covenant. In fact, the very passage about the "gifts and call of God are irrevocable" isn't referring to salvation but (in context) the physical seed of Abraham. Paul is clear that "all of Israel will be saved" -- further stating that it would happen (future tense) in a single day.

[ccchhhrrriiisss]

There is absolutely NO DOUBT that Romans 11 is referring to ethnic Jews -- physical Israel. It's clear in the very context. Anyone who thinks or has been taught otherwise simply needs to read Romans 11 (the entire chapter) aloud. As Peter said to the Jews in Acts 3 (who he was telling to repent and believe in Jesus), "You are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant that God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your offspring shall all the families of the earth be blessed.’ God, having raised up his servant, sent him to you first, to bless you by turning every one of you from your wickedness" (Acts 3:25-26 ESV).

Thus, there is no distinction when it comes to salvation. In the old covenant, it was by grace through FAITH (i.e., "Abram believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness"). In this new covenant, it is by faith too -- but in Jesus Christ.

Every message of salvation preached by Jesus and the apostles until Cornelius (after Peter's vision of the sheet from Heaven) was directed to physical Israel (i.e., Jews). That is a period of between 8-10 years (given the timetable mentioned in Acts correlated with Galatians). So, from the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2 through the death of James, Stephen, conversion of Paul and, finally, Peter's realization via the vision and meeting with Cornelius, the Gospel was only presented to physical Israel.

However, the original covenant with Abraham -- the one that predates the covenant law of Moses by 430 years -- included a promise of a people and land. It doesn't have to be "either/or." While Jews still need faith in Jesus to be saved, the covenant is still valid regarding the inheritance of this land. They play a crucial role in eschatology after the "fullness of the Gentiles has come in."

[Jeremyb]

I follow dispensationism... I don't know anybody who teaches that there are two ways of salvation. Sorry, but it's hard to listen to someone who is presenting dispensationism with that kind of straw man attack. To be clear, there are only "two peoples of God" in the sense that there is national Israel according to the old covenant and the body of Christ according to the new covenant. Clearly, both jews and gentiles are of the body of Christ. But God still has a purpose for national Israel and that is clear in the NT. Nobody is claiming that they are saved in any other way.

*Correction - I accidentally wrote "all jews and gentiles are of the body of Christ." I meant "both" not "all."

[JSkeletonNintendo]

Half way through the video it’s suggested that it ends up being “two ways of Salvation.” I don’t see how it’s concluded that just because one believes Israel still has a place, that it means there’s 2 ways of Salvation.

How were Israel saved in the first place? Surely not the blood of lambs or goats, as we are told that does not nor cannot save. So clearly it was pointing forward to the cross.

Both Israel in the OT and the church in the NT are saved by ONE way of Salvation, ONE means of grace which is in the Lord Jesus Christ.

So then, to believe that ethnic Israel still has a place as God promised them and as is repeated in Romans 11, is not to believe 2 means of Salvation at all. They will look upon the one whom they pierced and weep (Zechariah 12:10).

[rocketman]

Why do reformed theology people look to 1600's and leave out early Church fathers in eschatology? Calvin has been made into a godlike human by reformed theologians.

[jjreddog]

It is now a year later and as much as I love to listen to these men and I do trust their teaching, we are seeing how God Himself is making Israel the "Burdensome Stone"
from Zec Chapter 12. I still think God has a special plan for the Jewish people and will un-vale it more in the days ahead. The God who watches over Israel never
slumbers or sleeps, we have not reached the end of never. It will be very interesting up ahead, I also like reading my new subscription of Table Talk. Blessings from WA ST

[GeorgeJosephFamily]

This is an important issue, particularly in the light of recent events. I see a blind spot in the Covenant/Reformed understanding of the Jews and Israel. This question of Israel does not have to deal with Salvation, but with covenants to Abraham and later through the many prophets - Israel has a special role in God's plans, and He cannot abandon Israel, just as He is faithful to promises to the Church in relation to Salvation. However, promises to Israel has to do with their existence and Eschatology - It is Both/And for Israel and the Church; not a simple logic but a multi-dimensional view, just as required when we try to understand the Trinitarian doctrine.

[alanmunch]

I find this quite disturbing. Christians are not supposed to be ignorant of such things, as the apostle Paul said, but these gentlemen, who I’m sure are experts on some parts of Scripture, and on the history of the -isms they adhere to, seem quite confused and clueless on this issue and somewhat detached. The apostle Paul would be weeping if he heard this conversation, I think.

[OldMovieRob]

Dr. Nichols makes the point that its just about reading the Bible, and that's the very reason I struggle to make sense of the Reformed amil position, namely as you work through reading Isaiah and over and over and over again read specific promises to Israel that are challenging to spiritualize: rebuilding of Jerusalem, working the land, men living to being over 100, infants not dying and so on. What era is this talking about, and when did it happen?

[urbanreformedpodcast]

Actually while Calvin saw "All Israel" as all the elect throughout history or the Church, Calvin did indeed affirm a future salvation of ethnic Israel. I suggest reading Calvin's commentary on Romans 11. Dr. Sproul also included Calvin in this camp when he was asked. There is much confusion and conflation on this and this topic has been neglected these days.

[rickderwent]

Though I generally am grateful for coming to a Reformed understanding of scripture, it has been a most shameful experience watching very earnest Covenant preachers and evangelists respond so blindly, harshly and dismissingly of our Jewish family. I love how caring, balanced and supportive John MacArthur is towards God's most hated, persecuted and displaced people on earth. I still believe Jesus Christ still has eternal purposes for the nation of Israel. (Romans 12). I love the discussion and you gentlemen.

[gregorylightcatcher]

Derek Thomas speaks about this with understanding, clarity and grace.

[alanhaskins]

The Lord Jesus Christ said there would be one shepherd and one flock and I am content with that. In the fulfillment of the types and shadows and wonderful promises contained in the Old Testament scriptures, the one people of God emerges. New testament saints are fellow heirs with their old testament brothers and sisters and we are all one in Christ Jesus our Lord and Saviour.

[bobhutton]

I see that the speaker at 2 min 20 is repeating the lie that Dispensationalists teach 2 ways of salvation. That is NOT the case. If these so-called "wise men" wish to attack dispensational theology at least they could have the good grace not to misrepresent it.

[cue_khb]

Ethnicity simply matters nothing at all.
In Christ is our identity reckoned.

[victorrene]

I love reformed teachers, on this issue I agree with John MacArthur

[christinehunt]

Derek Thomas is always more complicated and confusing than necessary. Thank you, Dr. Nichols, for speaking so clearly.

[rubiks]

The Jews are saved the same way everyone else is – by repentance and trusting in the life, atoning death, and resurrection of the Son of God, Jesus the Messiah, our King. However, as far as _institutions_ go, there is the Church and there is Israel and when Jesus returns and splits the Mount of Olives and saves Israel from her enemies in a very real earthly sense, the Israelites there and then will collectively believe and be saved en masse. This is the most natural reading of the biblical text.

This idea of _two ways of salvation_ only exists in the minds of anti-dispensationalists. I am not a dispensationalist but I wish to defend them on this point. They are accused of believing something which they do not believe. While I am not a dispensationalist, I agree with many of the ideas. My introduction to systematic theology was through C. I. Scofield's annotated Bible which was the first Bible I received or ever opened. I read it cover to cover including all notes. (Somehow, his foolishness in Genesis 1 did not stick in my mind. Perhaps I was protected by the Holy Spirit.) I understand the notes are not "God's Word" but many of them made a lot of sense.

My understanding of God is that He does things _every_ way possible. That means there are two bodies – a spiritual body, the Church, and there is a physical body, Israel, but both meet at the cross and both are saved there in the same manner.