Is BATMAN Selfish?! || NerdSync

Today, we're discussing some of your comments about Batman's moral code against killing the Joker, and whether Marvel should've kept Elektra dead!

You guys leave some AMAZING comments on our videos! Every Monday, Scott replies and responds to them in Tales From The Comments!

———————PODCASTS———————

Listen to the NERDSYNC PODCAST!

Listen to the FLASHBACK FLICKS PODCAST!

———————COMMENTS———————

Aaron Griffin
Jay B
Abe
Treblaine
CurtisAlfeld
CraftyKittyGaming

——————SOCIAL MEDIA——————

BECOME a NerdSync Patron!

[Mewchu]

I think what happens with Batman and the Joker is that people see the lines "We're destined to do this forever, aren't we, " and "Neither of us can kill the other" and decide that that's saying that the two characters need each other, when the actual meaning is more like this. Batman can't kill Joker without becoming like him, and without Batman, Joker wouldn't have a punchline, someone to end the jokes.

[DocWolph]

Batman has his good points, but the one thing that bugs my instantly is how he is so unwilling to let others be crime fighters and superheroes occasionally even in their own cities. This really comes up in cross-overs and even though those meetings are not necessarily canon, his attitude on the subject is.

Sure he can disagree on how a super deals with crime, like Spawn, who is violent to the NC-17 and beyond occasionally. But Spider-Man?

Batman is either selfish and or he is grossly insecure.

[ValpasKankaristo]

"We can't live without each other" is a quote from Joker, not a fact ;)

[ericfellner]

I totally don't get the dependency theory that Batman needs the Joker. When Batman isn't around the Joker, he's never wondering what the Joker is up to. Not all Batman stories involve the Joker, all Joker stories involve Batman.

[JohnSmith-syzm]

For reference I'm talking about the portrayal of the Batman character in all Batman movies. Notable examples in comics would be, "Kingdom Come", "Batman: Year One", "Dark Knight Returns", "The Dark Knight Strikes Again", "Batman RIP" and a passing familiarity with a pre-52 90's to today. Of course I've also seen, "Batman: The Animated Series" as well as all four seasons of "Justice League", and played through, "Arkham City" and, "Arkham Asylum", as well as, "Injustice: Gods Among Us".

To be clear, he claims to wants to save Gotham. Did he ever think about putting down the cape and cowl? Using his resources and clever mind he could have affected more change in Gotham as Bruce Wayne than as the Dark Knight. You can see this in the DMZ storyline where his one publicist was informing him that he should have at least a dozen, and the whole story line reflected his neglect of anything above street level. Once that thread was pulled at the whole thing comes undone and it becomes obvious that he keeps Gotham this way on purpose. He doesn't really want to do anything to make things better. Why would he? Punching people is much more gratifying than building a school, donating money, or supporting a political candidate.

So purely from the standpoint of DC wanting to sell books, I understand no one wants to see Bruce Wayne Philanthropist, they want Batman punching Joker in the face.

He was/is fighting a corrupt police force and that is why he still has the cape and cowl. Ok, so what? A brilliant mind as Batman's/Bruce Wayne's couldn't figure out a better way? "I could probably bribe key people, black mail others, and install people of integrity into key positions to clean up the police force....Nah, I'm going to pour my resources into a utility belt and then beat up the corrupt police I'm fighting and then hand them over to the same corrupt police that I'm fighting."

He seriously spends more time coming up with Superman counter measures, than devising any kind of end strategy that will benefit Gotham. The money and resources he put into Brother Eye illustrate what I mean.

Maybe throw some money at Arkham to keep the place from being a revolving door? If you're mad that Batman continues to let Joker live, you should be more mad that he was ever able to escape or be let out of Arkham.

Run for office? I mean Lex Luthor was president FFS. That Bruce never attempted a run confuses me even further considering his extreme distrust of other metahumans. You're telling me he has better intelligence gathering capabilities from the cave? From who? Oracle?

Certainly ego plays a part in any superhero's origin story i.e. "Only I have the powers to save my city!" and what not. Every character is different though. Take Superman, I don't think he does what he does because of small town values. He can hear people calling for help on the other side of the planet, how long before you either leap into action or completely shutdown? So he's motivated and he's got the powers to do something, but he doesn't force Kryptonian tech and society onto humans. He realizes that humanity needs to get their on there own. He can only tamper so much with society a la, "The prime directive". The Flash, Barry Allen, was/is a cop. Wonder Woman is an ambassador trying to bring peace to man's world. Sometimes that means twisting someone's head off i.e. Maxwell Lord, and others its being an example. Her agenda is to leave the world better than when she found it. Every other hero has a similar reason for doing what they're doing.

Once you start seeing the big picture for the Batman, I feel you start to see that he has no agenda and if not keeping Gotham bad he certainly isn't trying to fix it. All so he can feel better about himself and his helplessness at his parent's death. His, "heroism" is not selfless and has nothing to do with changing things but everything to do with ego.

[iamrobin]

I have a theory that Batman isn't killing the Joker only because he wants there to be a balance. He wants to keep fighting criminals, he's obsessed with it, and keeping Joker alive will keep the possibility of crime in Gotham up. He doesn't kill the Joker because he secretly adores being Batman, and will refuse to let that go.

[linkzellda]

I'll going to say that... Yes, Batman is selfish sometimes.

Batman's greatest weakness is his No Kill Rule, and sure! While it reinforces his moral code from time to time, but over the years. That rule has caused several problems as more murderous villains escape and run rampant, continuing their reigns of terror, and the cycle begins again. A good example is with the Joker, who routinely leaves a large body count in the wake of his regular escapes.

At some point, Batman needs to realize that his desire to keep his hands clean might have disastrous consequences. So it is obvious that Batman doesn't care about the citizens that have to go through a tragic event that one of his villains causes. Batman, it seems he will always go out to protect Joker or any of his villains from other people who tried to kill them such the case with his crossover with the Punisher, or Judge Dred.

Batman doesn't believe the system, otherwise, he wouldn't wear the weird suit and punch people in the middle of the night, so he put himself above the law. It doesn't help that Batman always seems to lock his criminals in Arkham that has proven time and time again to be useless to lock criminals.

And that is because Arkham is not a prison, but a psychiatric hospital, so instead of locking them in Black Gate, he believes that his criminals are insane and they need therapy. Despite many of his criminals are not insane like Bane, and sure they do insane stuff, but it doesn't mean they are insane.

So yes, Batman is a selfish person.

[docholliday]

How does all the blood not run to Spider-Man's head when he's upside down

[DWZBT]

After watching Fate: Zero(anime)...

Yeah, Batman, as a hero, should go ahead and kill the Joker
All three of them

However, I've always seen Batman's argument as "If I kill the Joker, where do I draw the line for whom I can or cannot kill? Eventually, I might even start killing street thugs."

Which *sounds* illogical until you realise that is only the case if Batman has a weak mental state, where he's constantly fighting his own urges to kill villians, and that the first kill would be all that's required to break his mental fortitude and send him on a killing streak.

I have also read Boku no Hero Academia(manga), which is inspired by and plays with many of the tropes set by comic books. In it, there is an arc where the definition of a hero is explored, where the idea that a hero should protect, and never avenge (ahem), even when their loved ones are the victim of a villian.

This prompted me to wonder if that's Batman's concern. Where if he killed the Joker and went down the slippery slope, he would start killing for vengeance and pointless justice, instead of focusing on protecting the innocent. There may come a time where he would choose to let innocent people die just to pursue and kill another villian. He would essentially become an antihero, who fights to kill the evil instead of protect the innocent.


Drawing parallels between anime and comics be like... ._.

[larrywolf]

A hero would self-sacrifice for the greater good, even if the sacrifice is their principles.

[dennisssmith]

I would agree with you Scott, if Batman were to be traumatically affected by killing the Joker, his performance may very well be hindered, causing him to be more of a danger to Gotham than a help. If you check out "Batman: The Cult, " you'll see that Batman being psychologically affected be the villain leads to terrible consequences for Gotham that Batman has to try to completely undo. However, whether or not killing the Joker actually would affect Batman traumatically is an entire debate on its own. I will say that while killing JUST the Joker wouldn't necessarily be a wrong thing to do, it does present a higher potential for Batman to fall into a "slippery slope" situation. For many murderers, in both comics and the real world, the first kill is always the hardest, but it gets easier and easier from there. If Batman were to kill the Joker, he'd probably have to be even more vigilant not to break his code again.

[AmaranthOriginal]

I usually just assume everyone is either a Skrull, a clone, a Life-Model Decoy or a Doombot. It explains why comics are so inconsistent.

[itachiful]

why does it have to be batman who kills the joker? Batman has captured the joker many time and handed him over to the proper authorities.

[RyanDelahunt]

in Under The Red Hood Batman says the reason he wouldnt kill Joker, even though he wants to, is because if he allows himself to go to that place and kill some he'll "never come back" so the reason why he doesn't kill the Joker is because if he starts killing, he might not be able to stop

[theamazingrobin]

*explains why Batman needs the Joker, in order to stay in Peak Batman Condition, literal next question says "i understand why Joker would need Batman" but not why Batman would need the Joker.
LOL

[XrosM]

Just like Joker said "Without Batman, crime has no punchline".

[abcmurder]

Talk about status quo and death:
- Professor X (one of the most powerful psychic): Dead
- Logan (mutant with healing factor and adamantium steel skeleton): Dead
- Aunt May (old ordinary lady with no super power): cheat death and still alive
Does that mean Aunt May status quo is more powerful than the other two??
DC should learn to let go The Joker, they could make Harley Quinn the new joker...

[baseddeathfafy]

Batman needs Joker is completely ridiculous.

Batman was Batman before Joker therefore the need of Joker was never a necessary factor to Bruce being Batman. Batman would live a less brooding, depressing life if Joker was gone. The whole Yin and Yang balance doesn't only account for Joker. Scarecrow, Two Face, Mr. Freeze and the whole gallery are more than enough to balance out his Good/Evil complex.

Also the whole "it's a line I can't step back from" thing is complete bull. He's blurred the lines of friendship and trust between Supes, JLA, girlfriends, Police, etc. He does everything to incapacitate bad guys except kill them e.g broken bones, concussions, and many other things that shorten their lives in the long run.

The longer he keeps Joker alive the more him and Joker slowly fuse into an unnecessary entity of hatred, lunacy and despair. He's just telling Jason, Barbara. Commissioner Gordon and the rest of Joker's victims that they don't matter as much as his ambiguously gray moral code.

[thefatheroflies]

Aw man! I thought for sure I'd get in the video on diligence alone! My comment used like 15 different nicknames for The Joker in it! Some of which I can proudly say I created myself. Good video, Scott.

[MrPainkiller]

I like the treesicle argument. Batman sees his rouges gallery like a shadow of himself, and believes that they are all capable of redemption. Therefore he let's them live so that they may redeem themselves later...possibly. (don't think Joker would be able to be redeemed though)