My Problem With Fire Emblem: The Road To Ruin

My Problem With Fire Emblem: The Road To Ruin

[primefusion]

Thanks for the feedback, Mangs. Some folks might find your words a little on the sharp side, but I was pretty okay with it.
Though I wouldn't blame folks for being upset, seeing as this is a video that straight up calls out a project.

Most of the feedback I've gotten so far (which hasn't been a whole lot) has been pretty vague.
"I liked it but it ended up being easy".
That doesn't really help me.
It's nice to get some specifics that I can actually tackle.
A lot of this development, especially the earlier chapters, were done by the seat of my pants.

You could say that's terrible and say I should go back and fix it.
And you'd be right. But that day isn't today. Or even next month.
I started working on this project all the way back in 2009.
By myself.
With the exception of portraits, I'm a one man crew. So, you could say I'm burnt out on it 8 years later.
Whenever I do decide to take another look at it, I'll reference this video for sure.

Critique is a fine line to walk. A lot of people abandon constructive commentary in favor of mud slinging, which is pretty disappointing.
I'm glad you don't really want to do that.

I think the only thing that rubs me the wrong way is that you made a public video calling out the project.
It's kind of like you're putting it on the hobbling wheel in the town square.
It just feels...uncomfortable. Especially when a simple post on the forums would have sufficed.

Anyways, I'm out. Peace~

[Mangs]

No, this was not the big project I was teasing. This is something I made quickly today when I got home from the gym.

The big video is still about 60% done.

[SilentEagle]

So to sum up the points here...

- Each unit should have a use in the map
- Secrets and items should be placed in the way of the action
- Enemies should be scaled to the units you have at the beginning
- Make something that stands out

[chriram]

From the title I thought the video would be about the evolution of Fire Emblem games LOL

[Regunes]

THIS GUY NAME IS BORDEL? IT LITERRALY MEAN FUCK IN FRENCH

[Faerghast]

This video is a prime example of how frustrating it is to watch you try to be analytical.

First, I think it’s downright stupid to call a story generic and vanilla just because the first chapter is straightforward. And especially stupid if you haven't played past the first few chapters. Either call out the chapter in a vacuum or choose your words better. The plot is centered much around the politics of its world, like the Tellius series.

You must stop trying to speak for all players whenever you make any kind of analysis. "This video fails to capture the player's interest on multiple levels." You don't speak for all players. You never can speak for all players when its "just your opinion."
"Something starts to feel incredibly off about the enemies you fight" Just a general criticism of how you review things. You tend to over-exaggerate your feelings. Usage of words like "incredibly off", "amazing", "fails to" aren't helpful word choices. I don't know if you think these words helps strengthen your argument, but it doesn't. Especially if your actual argument can't justify the wordage (which it doesn't in this video). It’s a novice mistake people make when they do critical analysis.

So, you mention that the map is peppered with ranged enemies. And I think you exaggerate this. the top left javelin soldier is easily killable on turn one with buck/torie. There are only 2 archers in the entire map, the rightmost who is easily killable because his AI is set to pursue, and the bottom left one. And as you said, handaxers who aren't anything special.
You complain that Vance is melee locked, but you *literally* tried soloing an entire lane with just him. If you balanced your team better, say, had Ava and Buck on one side and Torie and Vance on the other. You would find it much less of a problem.
You made a player error by seemingly trying to have a mercenary solo a lane with a javelin user and a bow user. And yet, you blame the map for feeling "incredibly off". And I know you bring my playthrough up later in the video, but this isn't a good strategy. Vance's personal weapon still deals 14 damage and has a hit chance of 84%. Your argument suggests that somehow just because he has a weapon disadvantage means his personal weapon isn't useful. Him with literally any combination of units will defeat him. This seems like an arbitrary complaint to me.

Buck: "For all intents and purposes, he is basically Wolt." Do you even know what that expression means?
Wolt's bases: 18HP, 4 str, 4 skl, 5 spd, 2 lck, 4 def and 0 res.
Buck's bases: 21HP, 6 str, 8 skl, 8 spd, 5 lck, 5 def and 1 res.
These aren't the same. If by "by all intents and purposes" you mean "he's an early game archer" then sure, I guess? And since when do we hate archers for doing chip damage? Buck isn't weak at chipping and can double fighters in this map. I will agree that the house is too out of the way, though. But I disagree that its so far that it makes him completely useless for the rest of the map.

Torie: Admittedly, Torie kind of struggles here. But to call her flying not very useful, not good against anyone and a complete liability on the field is extremely inaccurate.
First, what are you doing at 4:45. Were you just purposely playing terrible to make a point or you trying here?
The example you showed was a situation that would only occur if you were playing very bad. Her flying is helpful to get across the river and rescue whoever you partner her up with if you get overwhelmed (typically Vance), she can ferry Buck from the house back into action and can tank hits from the swordsmen if you choose to fly over to the right side where they typically approach. All options which you chose not to mention, possibly because you weren't strategic enough to utilize the units you had.
So, no. Her flying is useful. No, she can deal with units well if you can utilize her flight and typing. No, she isn't a "complete liability." Are you starting to see how that language isn't helpful to your argument?

"If I designed this map". Oh, please. If you need to develop a contingency plan against Javelin wielding soldiers, of which there are 2 in the entire map, one of whom can die on turn one, instead of a flyer who can deal with swordsmen much better than an axe fighter (of all units? seriously?), then I would argue that that's an even worse idea.

Ava: yes, she's well done. "If it weren't for Ava, this map would've been a complete disaster." Wow, it’s almost as if the map was designed around these units being deployed. Who woulda thunk it?

Ah, you mentioned my run-through of this chapter. Soloing that spot with Vance isn't a good idea. You can pair him with Torie, and when it gets heated, rescue him out of there. That's what I started to do upon my second attempt at this map. The encroaching enemies will still pursue, but by the time they get there, they your 4 units should be able to confront them all. With someone choking the point on the fort.

"Again, this map is doing a terrible job"... "Your main character gets thrown into a situation..." No, this is outright a complete player error on both my end and anyone else who chooses to solo this portion of the map. It's not the design being flawed, it's the player not using their units in the best way possible. Stop trying to peg the map for being "absolutely terrible" when the reality is you're playing bad. This is a common criticism I, and many others have about you when you're critiquing things, Mangs.

And the SoA comparison. Yes, that is a very well-done prologue. better than TRTR, better than Bloodlines and better than MS.
Doesn't make TRTR's a flaming garbage dump like you're trying to argue that it is.
Very close-minded of you to not play this hack because of the prologue being standard. But if this is the extent of your "helpfulness" then don't bother.

[PixiePulse_]

I would say this hack tried to do the opposite of what Staff of Ages does. Where SoA used the first chapter to showcase it's unit's strengths, RtR showcases their weaknesses and forces you to fight past them. It puts you at a disadvantage, and it makes victory much sweeter in that case, I think.

[bhupindersohal]

Mr.Mangs~
I do agree with you on some of your points.
--Buck
Yes, Buck is there for chip damage, and I agree that he is somewhat lackluster at first. His bases are decent for a level two archers, and in terms of growths he's not fast, but he's not strong either (45% and 40% respectively) and high skill growth, as expected of a typical archer (60%). I would say he is better than Wolt though, as Buck seems to have more long term potential due to better bases and technically better growths (5% more speed, more defence, res, skill, but less hp by about 10%, strength growth is the same). I would say that the vulnerary in the top right corner isn't worth getting actually since you get a healer in the next chapter. If Buck had enough speed to double all the enemies on the map (I'll get to the map later) but not enough strength to one round them, he'd be good in my book. On top of that, if his strength, skill, and speed growths were swapped around a bit then, (60, 45, 40 respectively after the fact) I'd say he'd be 4-5 star worthy as he would grow very well throughout the 20 or so chapters of RtR (Road to Ruin)
--Vance
Yes, its a shame Vance is kind of screwed over in being good in the "different" department, but I would rate him as a somewhat good unit. He has enough bulk and offensive stats to solo that lower part of the map, just like Ghast Station did in his video. Sure, he may be locked to swords for the most part, but considering he could solo that many units *without* help does make him stand out. The only other person on the team who could probably do that is Ava, who I will get to later. Vance's growths compared to his buddy Buck, are actually kind of worse in my opinion. He has +10% hp growth, and a +5% str and defence growth, but everything else Buck ties or is better than him, which is everything else. that is 4/7 stats. Buck also, overall has +20 overall growths than Vance does. However, Vance does have better bases for only 1 level up on Buck (+1 to skl, spd, luck, and +2 to hp). So I guess what I'm trying to say is that I believe your not giving Vance enough credit where credit is due. I respect your opinion Mr. Mangs, and I agree that it sucks that Vance is locked to swords in a map with a lot of 1-2 range weapons, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's automatically doing a bad job at being who he is supposed to be.
--Torie
Torie is...really lackluster for a typical Pegasus Knight. Squishy, fast, and not hard hitting... Lets compare her to Florina, and Vanessa. Vanessa, in the chapter she is used in the first time you get her, ends up in the same situation (on difficult mode). She gets two shot by all the axe users, and this is with *worse* bases for 1 single level up of difference. the only base Vanessa has on top of Torie is 1 speed. But the reason why Vanessa is instantaneously better is that she has something to do other than pick off a kill here and there. In terms of growths, Vanessa will overall have more skill speed and luck, which is basically the Pegasus Knight's bread and butter. Torie has 10% more defence (total is 30% def growth), 20% more hp(70%) and 5% more res(35% res). I can't see how the defence or res will help at all with Torie's growth. From what I remember in Ghast Station's old playthrough, she's the only flyer the player has for a long while, which is really disappointing.
Now Florina (Lyn mode), in my opinion, is what Torie should have been. Florina has worse bases for only a 1 level difference, but the map she is placed in at first is absolutely perfect for her (1 village+mercenaries+archers THAT WILL NEVER GET NEAR HER and no hand axes) Florina, like Torie, gets two shot by any axe user. But Florina, like Vanessa, has better growths in the bread and butter area, with a +5% strength growth as well. She is the least bulky of the three with 15% defense.
The overall problem with Torie is that she doesn't have a good limelight in the first TWO chapters. There are no important villages to rescue, nor any specific area where there are only sword users, maybe a lance user here and there, and no archers/axe users. Not only that, Torie will end up being... balanced in stats, which a Pegasus knight, in my opinion, shouldn't be.
--Ava
Nothing to say here, you summed it up pretty much. She has a 0% str and def growth, which I find really sad. It is expected for her to drop off of course, but she could have some growths in those areas at least (though she does have amazing growths in all other areas for a Jeigan).
--The map
The first map...is really big for a prologue. I feel as if Mr. PrimeFusion could've done something similar to Chapter 1 of FE8 and it would've been a lot better. Same amount of playable units, more enemies than playable units, forts, and a retaking of a captured Castle.
---the Second map
I know you didn't cover this, but I feel as if it needs to be said. It's nice. I like that you have to rescue the green units to recruit them. Good Job Mr. PrimeFusion, but there are just...so many enemies. Fe8 chapter 2 had 6+2(reinforcements), the same objective, and it did a perfect job of it, where the player had to rush to save both (by both I mean one) green units. Not only that, There is no rush to rescue the green units in RtR unless a stray mercenary attacks the cleric (as shown in Ghast Station's new playthrough). I did play through this chapter and recruited them as fast as I can, but what I did notice is that the green units were never in any actual danger, which is what the entire basis of the chapter is. I took it a bit slower just to see what would happen, and they were never really in danger still. The size of the map also could be a bit smaller by a couple tiles or so.
That's really all I have.

[NIMPAK]

You should make a video on what makes a good first chapter, since it's a little different than what makes a good map for all the other chapters since you have to ease the player into the game while teaching them most of the major mechanics. FE1 did a great job with its first chapter, by placing villages, a fort, and a shop nearby and also has a thief that has already destroyed showing that thieves can destroy villages. They also placed Caeda near a body of water so when you select her you immediately know she can fly over the water (at least in the remakes). It's not a great chapter in the sense that there are major turtle disincentives or multiple objectives, but they did a great job teaching the player without overloading them with information or insulting their intelligence.

[thattimestampguy]

1:10 Bland Vance
1:43 Ch 1. Map Design
2:38 Vance the Mercenary
3:23 Buck the Archer
4:26 Tory the Pegasus Knight
5:09 Ava the Swordmaster
7:37 Staff of Ages Ch 1
8:39 Nitpicking?

[johnseymore]

This was really informative. I’ve been interested in FE level design, and your critique on the first map really shed some light on what can make a Not-so-fun map.

[cameronsprong]

an interesting perspective, I can say for certain that I thought the same way about the first chapter of R2R but i'm enjoying it more since I got through the earlygame

[OmegaCKL]

Three is still one thing wrong with map 1 on Staff of Ages.




The green units.

[subwayfootlong]

This could very well be the last comment I ever post since Net Neutrality is getting repealed tomorrow. I just want to say thank you for all the laughs, memes, and memories Mangs.

[alldorf]

I played RTR a few times and I didn't feel the same way when I first played it, but it does make a lot of sense. I always felt that with Tory's high starting speed it made finishing off slower enemies a walk in the park for me. What I didn't like for the most part was the limited playable units, the S rank weapons showing up too late in the game, ONE good dark magic user that was a pain in the ass to train, and that Vance and Ava weren't able to wield second weapons. That being said I loved the story, the main antagonist was a real bastard, not only to face as final boss but just who he was, totally evil! The music was awesome, not sure how much of it was original but either way killer job to primefusion!

[dryzalizer]

I agree completely with your analysis Mangs, but the beauty of the hacking community is that they can make deconstructionist FE games that do not follow the formula of the main series. As an experienced FE player, I find it interesting and realistic that your starting hero and group in Road to Ruin are not well-suited to handle their first battle. The chapter is a bit more challenging this way, and I'll be watching Ghast's playthrough to see how long this hack can successfully keep the player at a disadvantage (at least through the second map, from what's been posted so far). In the end this approach may prove tedious and impossible to sustain, but I wouldn't judge a hack too harshly because it has a non-formulaic first chapter. I think people who play FE hacks are generally more hardcore fans who have fun seeing the traditional formulas toyed with and deconstructed, and the direction R2R has taken so far is new and interesting. Hacking is a great platform for stretching the definition of what a FE game can be, I wouldn't judge R2R as a failure yet.

[Strategistmaster]

Tbh the game looks pretty interesting.

[Darkyan]

Ava is super useful though and relevant even in endgame because of an "event" halfway through.

[TheMadRedHatter]

I don’t think you’re being overly critical Mangs. This is something even the main Fire Emblem games have to do, make each starting character useful in some regard. Going back to the Binding Blade example, not only is Wolt bad since he only does chip damage, but Bors is even worse since he suffers weapon triangle disadvantage the entirety of the first map, making him effectively useless. Now in that case it’s mostly forgivable, since the first map is still perfectly bearable thanks to the likes of Marcus, Alan and Lance, so the map isn’t a complete train wreck. Then again both examples don’t give a good first impression on the main character, do they?

[mareczek]

So basically take away javelins and handaxes for now, add Torie some speed or make her switch places with an axe unit, move house closer to the action .