What makes a game 'Pay to Win'?

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What is 'Pay to Win'?
When does a game become pay to win?
If you can get an item in game, or buy it, is it still pay to win?

It's a complex situation, and when a game becomes 'pay to win' is really dependant on the individual player.

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There is an interesting assumption baked into the balancing act of the Pay 2 Win calculation... that is, that the 'grind time' is not otherwise valuable *except* to acquire the desirable goal-state (item, achievement, etc).

If you are in a game, and you are seriously considering whether *not needing to play the game* for some amount of time has a monetary benefit to you, that heavily implies that that time playing the game would otherwise have *no value* of its own, except for the goal-state within the game. A goal-state that, in the Cash-Shop example, you are primed to associated with a real world value, even though its value is *entirely within the virtual world, and also subjective as a result*.

In my opinion, if a game has come to the point where you are considering spending money to play less of the game, then *not playing the game* has become more valuable than actually *playing the game*, the thing we ostensibly do for FUN, in and of itself. The most profitable decision, it seems at that point, is to spend no money, and not play the game at all - I can 'not play the game' for theoretically infinite time at no monetary cost, after all, making that the best money and time for value.

Remember getting excited to buy an expansion pack to a game you loved, because it meant you got *more game to play*? You paid money to be able to *play more fun game*. Somehow, we've reached a place where we're being asked to pay money to *play less game*, and being convinced that we're getting a good deal in the process... but that can only be a good deal if the game we're playing less of *wasn't fun to play*. In which case... why are we playing?

When a game tries to sell you 'advantages' that 'save time' for real world money, they're saying, explicitly, "We think our gameplay isn't valuable, so we're giving you the ability to pay money to skip it."

HeavyMetalMouse
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When I was a student, I used to price things in terms of how many pints I could buy instead.

There's a reason I don't have a great degree.

frthlvfchrt
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I have never understood wanting to pay money to play less of a game that you enjoy. If the 'grind' of playing a game isn't fun, you should not be questioning if it's pay to win, but instead questioning why you are playing a game you don't find fun.

bardofhighrenown
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something I think you should mention is that when grinding for something, the devs determine how long it takes you to get it.
If the devs had infinite money and were only focused on making the best game, they would set the time needed to achieve a goal at X hours, for the most fun and feeling of achievement. If they make X much smaller it will be too easy, like playing with cheats. If they make X longer, it will be a grind. The game will start to drag and it won't be fun anymore. If they then offer to sell you the item instead, or if they offer to sell you a booster to gain more xp or money while playing, they are then very strongly incentivized to increase X, so that you will be more tempted too buy the item or the booster. So even if it is not strictly 'pay to win', cash shops give the developers a really strong motivation to INTENTIONALLY MAKE THE GAME WORSE!

rnut
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I have become **incredibly** suspicious of games nowadays because so many of them are just so disrespectful to its playerbase, seeing actual people as nothing more than walking wallets to socially engineer into willingly letting themselves be robbed.

I remember coming across a video long ago, my memory is not that great so it may have actually been another one of your videos but while I don't remember the video itself I do remember a valuable lesson from it that I keep in mind to this day: Your time is valuable, don't waste it. Considering I'm so busy nowadays, I'm glad I learned that lesson then instead of learning it too late.

BlueDragonGalaxy
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josh should start a new series where he interviews whales of different MMOs

bolo
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Josh decided this was a good occasion to casually flex with 28 mugs and I can respect that.

creativedesignation
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Every time Josh drops a video like this, its about something I either don't have the patience to explain but really want to, or something I wanna explain but can't find the right words.

smallbutdeadly
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There are other advantages also. A single person vs having a child. Single: Higher concentration, no distractions. Child: Eventually you can have a farmer ;)

bemmiebemmerich
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One important thing to remember: The creators of a game do not want you to earn it for free. They want you to pay, and they control the game. The house always wins.

cobra_commander
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JSH: What does "Pay to Win" really mean?
Gamigo: Yes

txag
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For me its Also important how much of the grind feels like.. A grind. If the time commitment is high but the activity is fun im less likely to pay

vaporeonlvl
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Love this video.
I think a great example of 'pay to win' and 'pay for a neat thing' and how it can change is Star Trek Online. Once upon a time (with its original owners/creators) it was a pay-to-play game but had a cash shop, the cash shop had some neat ships, extra races to play as and cosmetics however none of these things made you super powerful you didn't WIN by buying the and regular players would be on par with you even though you couldn't get these items in the game by playing. They existed as extras to enjoy and support the game further beyond the fairly cheap monthly cost. However when the game was sold to another company, that company came in, jacked up the prices in the cash shop (by making you have to buy a different currency then convert it to STO's currency) started introducing loot boxes and then made the game free to play. The predatory practices continued as they started introducing more flat out powerful ships and items, introduced new systems to the game then introduced time saving or resources you could buy in the shop to improve these systems. I'm doing a poor job of explaining here as I'm trying to keep it short but I think this game and how its focus and monetization process/focus changed between companies is a good case study for shop done right and then shop made pay to win.
Cheers

kylemartinelli
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I would love to have your point of view in regards to Warframe's, F2P and shop model. They seem to be constantly re-evaluating their choices to hit that fair point

anarchyaelle
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YES! I love that you're not giving companies an unfair pass here, like hardcore fans always do. Call me a boomer, but I don't get how this is even a discourse. Of course it's pay to win with a complex hiding technique as soon as buying something that gives you any sort of advantage is possible and remotely viable to anyone.

glanni
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I am an ancient Dinosaur, I expect. My ideal MMO is subscription based, $15 a month with zero MTX, not even cosmetics. 100% immersion. Everyone pays exactly the same thing as each other, and in-game, our characters are truly ours. A pure reflection of our accomplishments within the game. Beautiful. I miss those long-gone days.

KineticSymphony
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Poke the bear: All TCG's are heavily pay to win.

iamjvckpot
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Basically everything non cosmetic should be considered p2w. Sometimes even cosmetics are p2w, if they for example provide an advantage through camouflage.

StPauliFanNr
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*Pay for friends.
There, I fixed everything. The universe is complete.

seanwarren
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Absolutely amazing video as always! And I think GW2 hit the perfect line between cash shop and grinding. My worst game I've ever played was BDO where even the UI was forcing you to open the shop.
And I am so curious about what you think on this topic:

Why it is more accepted to pay to win in eastern MMOs? What is the culture behind? Why they are succesful there? They have more time or more money? I'm genuinely curious what you think.

attilavaju