Elaine Pagels: Donald Trump and Doubting Thomas - Almost Heretical Podcast Ep 132

Elaine Pagels presents the compelling theory that the Gospel of John might have intentionally silenced the Gospel of Thomas. This interview not only explores the hidden gospels but also challenges us to rethink the foundational narratives of Christianity through the insights of Elaine Pagels.

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almostheretical rethinking scriptures historical context curiosity nuance faith ancient deconstruction biblestudy exploration wesley huff dead sea scrolls #biblepodcast #sacredscriptures #deconstructingchristianity

[jillbrock]

Thank you Elaine Pagels for your many years of work that is opening the door to allow a more perfect understanding of the gospels and a path towards a perfect and powerful God of love.

[neilhundtoft]

Thank you so much for this. In April if 2017, I emailed Dr. Pagels for a reality check regarding my take on the Gospel of Thomas. She graciously responded and told me that I was giving it “a good read”. She pointed me to Helmut Koester's work “Ancient Christian Gospels” to learn more. That work, with its assertion of early composition of the Gospel of Thomas, has established the baseline for my perspective on the whole matter. So, Dr. Pagels can now only hold herself responsible for my looking at the Gospel of Thomas, not so much as a supplement to Jesus' teachings, but the actual source of what parts have been retained in the canon! I'm ready to argue that the evidence supports that Thomas also predates Q, which also draws from Thomas as a source. I'm a recovering academic who once did six years of graduate studies on a PhD in Philosophy; but that was 50 years ago. Now, at 80, such understanding as I might have comes from my practice of reciting the text twice daily and pondering its meaning in between times. There is so much I would like to say in response to this great presentation you've given us here that you can anticipate me flooding the zone with comments, just as quickly as I can prepare them. It's also a treat to see how Dr. Pagels' perspective has developed over the years. We may not have as much to disagree about now as I had come to believed. Regardless, my likely-to-remain-forever unpublished commentary includes a dedication page to Dr. Pagels. She's the best! Thank you again for this wonderful presentation. With your indulgence and as the gift of each day of life is granted me, I'm just getting started here! Peace and light!

[TmanTV]

This is an absolutely amazing dialog. I wish I could sit down with Dr Pagels and just spend a whole day talking about Christian history. There's so much that she's help uncover and expound upon. Thank you for conducting this wonderful interview and sharing it with us.

[MotheroftheEggLady]

I have followed Prof Pagels for years and because of her unmasking these findings so clearly i have been able to embrace my own faith.. accepting the questions i have of some orthodox catholic canon and realizing thats “ ok” without feeling guilt. also understanding my grown adults daughters own spiritual
path with confidence (they were brought up in both catholic and evangelical private schools .. the second ( evangelical) school displayed a lot of hypocrisy towards catholics. many teachers claiming catholics are not “ real Christians.. thank you !!

[bonful]

So relieved to hear Dr. Pagels reject evangelical exclusivity specifically (and Christian Nationalism in general). 🫶🏼 Elaine Pagels 🫶🏼

[joecorr]

That "then what" was awesome. Love podcasts that let's the guess talk.

[embracinghumans]

Thank you! Very well done! Keep up the good work!

[melswen]

After leaving a high demand religion, being taught to think a certain way-"we have the full truth" has always unsettled me. Now, I am able to explore an abundance of ideas having many different concepts and theories. One, that I hold fast to is the human family of which Dr Pagels eloquently explains in this interview.

[babsmalone]

Was taught the kingdom was equal to the earth that God created, the kingdom would be established on earth as in days past.

[Peekingduck]

31:10 I really wish the hosts wouldn't have interrupted her.
She wasn't finished and we probably really missed the point she had.

[neilhundtoft]

Esteemed Doctor Pagels, you have this part wrong!
Regarding Mark 4, verses 10-11. (Discussed at 11:00) First and most importantly, Jesus wasn't addressing his apostles here. He was speaking to those hanging out with the apostles and who had brought questions following his sermon. They came for the sermon, but stayed for the Q and A. Here, Jesus is declaring to them (and to us!) that the secret of the kingdom of god is promised and reserved for seekers just like them, and emphatically is not the exclusive property of his apostles. Jesus is not leading a gnostic cult, but is revealing how his message is antithetical to such as that! The truth he brings is available to all who seek it! The requirement for learning the mystery of the kingdom is not by adding to our thoughts, but rather by becoming like a child and acknowledging our ignorance! (Gospel of Thomas Sayings #3, #4, #22 and#46.) Dr. Pagels' interpretation is read into the text, but it simply doesn't hold up under scrutiny. Verse 10 (KJV) reads:  “And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve, asked of him the parable.” The Greek reads:
In Verse 11, Jesus responds to those who had brought questions, saying: “Unto you it is given to know...” “Ὑμῖν δέδοται γνῶναι...'”, No translation that I find reads “to you ALONE...”. as Dr. Pagels renders it. She's reading that in. We can see that the apostles weren't even being addressed (much less being treated as exclusive), making Pagels' reading of the passage all the more odd.
And so, I take issue with Dr. Pagels on what I find to be quite an important point impacting our understanding of Jesus' message. What would be the point anyway of some secret message for the benefit of his apostles alone? What work can that get done? Many Gospel of Thomas sayings speak against the idea of special knowledge. (Sayings #5, #6, #33, #113, etc.) Jesus acknowledges the fact that many among the general masses, carrying their pre-established definition of a political messiah, will project their faulty interpretation onto his teachings. Not to worry. Just enjoy with gratitude your deeper, personal, understanding. “You are the light of the world!” (from the sermon on the mount) wasn't whispered to Jesus' disciples in a cave. Jesus declared these words from the mountain to all the seekers who had journeyed out to listen. Jesus' light resides in seekers! It wasn't reserved for renunciate cave dwellers! The secret of the kingdom of God is reserved, and promised, to all who will but seek it (Gospel of Thomas, Saying #2). It comes to all who, like those who tagged along with the apostles, persevere in seeking. Jesus makes that promise to us all!! That's how I read this passage. Peace and light to all.

[daizeofgrace]

Thank you for paralleling this from John to Trump. Excellent! Yes he knows precisely what he’s doing and he’s divisive and sows continual seeds of doubt through lies. If you hear something enough times you believe it ie doubting Thomas!

[neilhundtoft]

Regarding Saying #61 (Discussed at 47:00) We are a single being.
Compare this saying with Luke 10:38-42 and enjoy how it is virtually the same teaching as what Saying #61 offers. Jesus visits Martha and her sister Mary. Martha complains about Mary not helping with the serving and hosting but is just sitting at Jesus' feet and listening to him. Jesus rebukes Martha for being divided and busy with many things when only one thing is needed, which Mary has chosen. It's the same lesson as in this saying, though here it is the male/female division that is rejected. Salome is divided by all of the roles she's fulfilling as required of a gracious female host. But playing all of those parts is a self-imposed separation between us, denying the reality of our shared being. Being whole, attending to this moment, undivided by role-playing, like Martha's sister Mary, is the way of a blessed life. It's important to notice that the text makes explicit that Salome, a woman, was a disciple of Jesus. But in order to be whole, she needs to quit finding her separate identity in what is female as much as males need to abandon the misogyny that would deny her standing as a disciple! Both suffer from the same error. Peace and light to all.

[nightoftheworld]

Pagels’ gist of the Gospel of Thomas seems close to Peter Rollins’ contradiction theology. The divine energy being paradoxically the energy of The light being that we all are split/lacking subjects—struggle being what’s universal.

[notaforte]

Your spirit is drafted to go to Earth. You go, but at the last minute you’re told you will arrive with a blank memory chip. You have to learn the ways taught to you until you determine what is best for you. You hear something about the kingdom of God. To later figure out it was always within you. Your forgotten soul…

[neilhundtoft]

Jesus' “secret sayings” - Regarding the Gospel of Thomas prologue:
What do you suppose Thomas was thinking about when he wrote down Jesus' teachings as he remembered them? Well luckily, I can tell you. “My ass is grass, if the sanhedrin gets a hold of this!” Jesus was crucified for the blasphemy of saying that he is one with God. Imagine what will happen to anyone committing that blasphemy to writing and adding yet another blasphemy claiming that we all are one with God! Shush shush! Word to your mother! Occam's razor – no more of an explanation is called for.
People project way too much mystery into the words of the prologue and then use it as a pretext for relegating the Jesus of the Gospel of Thomas to some kind of secret cult. That view is unwarranted, faulty and lacks support from the text. If someone were to read Saying #77 out loud in temple square, declaring: “I am the all; all came from me and to me all things reach!”, you better believe it would not go un-noticed by the leadership! Now add the words from Saying #108 declaring that as we come to understand Jesus' teachings we realize that all of us are also Jesus', his 'twin'. Need we look any further to see the simple prudence of keeping quiet?! The crowd was in such a rush to get Jesus crucified for claiming he was one with God that they never even heard the second blasphemy identifying us all with God! Half of the sayings of the Gospel of Thomas were part of Jesus' public ministry and are recorded in the canonical texts. Love your brother. Fast from the world. Eat what is offered you. This is all familiar and quite non-mysterious stuff. In Mark 4, the parable of the sower (Saying #9) is explained to the followers who remained after the sermon on the lake and asked about it. Notice that Jesus' explanation, which is included in the published gospel, is what Jesus references as “secret”. Understanding the parable of the sower remains hidden from those “outside” only because of their lack of interest in seeking any deeper understanding. The crowd, with its baked in beliefs about the coming of a political messiah, isn't interested to hear about the varying capacity of individuals to bear spiritual fruit. Generally, the text of Thomas declares, and even insists on, the accessibility of his message. Again and again, Jesus asserts that understanding his teachings is not something reserved for a special group. “Nothing will remain hidden.”: (#6); “Declare it from the housetop!” (#33) Such words are not the way of mysteries! The only claim of secrecy voiced is that by Thomas, who is committing Jesus' blasphemous teachings to parchment and creating an exhibit that could get himself crucified!
Jesus shows us in Mark 4 exactly what he means by sharing the “secrets” of the kingdom of God. It means explaining in plain language the meaning of a parable! The truth behind a parable remains hidden to those who don't know how to explain it. Such a level of “hiddenness” doesn't quite get us into learning passwords that will unlock the gates of the heavens! The meaning of a metaphor remains hidden from those who don't get poetry. But it can be explained. That's all. In Mark 4:11 Jesus declares nothing more than that regarding “secret” meaning. Look at the Greek. The English reads: (KJV)  And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: The full phrase in Greek reads: As Strom's dictionary makes clear, the operative word ( μυστήριον, mysterion) is often used to reference an ordinary secret, or to information that has been withheld. Paul employs this exact meaning in his epistles. In Ephesians as well as in Colossians, Paul prays to be articulate as he preaches to reveal and explain the “mysteries” to potential converts. Paul prays: (Eph. 6:19) "And for me,  that utterance may be given unto me,  that I may open my mouth boldly,  to make known the mystery of the gospel.” And then again: (Col. 4:3) "Withal praying also for us,  that God would open unto us a door of utterance,  to speak the mystery  of Christ,  for which I am also in bonds.” In calling Thomas' collection of sayings secret, Thomas is merely warning the reader that if they are carrying a copy of this document around with them, mum's the word when walking around the temple grounds, if they value their lives! The one hiding these sayings was Thomas, not Jesus! Peace and light to all.

[neilhundtoft]

The Gospel of Thomas is not a supplement!! (Discussion at 10:40) The Gospel of Thomas' title page is inscribed with the words “Gospel of Thomas”. It does NOT read “SUPPLEMENT to other Gospels” !! Sheeesh!! Precious Doctor Pagels, where is this stuff coming from? As you have acknowledged yourself, it's just a list of sayings. The text makes no claims about itself at all beyond what is inscribed on its title page. There's certainly no claim within the text either of it being in service to others. Furthermore, it would only be possible to serve as a supplement to others if it was composed following them. Right? I think there's good reason to not pitch our tent in that camp. Given Thomas' close relationship with Q and the very earliest of sources, that becomes a highly questionable assumption. It isn't even consistent with the general understanding of the place of sayings gospels in the development of Christian thought. My view is that the document is not a supplement, but gives expression to the very core of Jesus' teachings. That's why half of it can be found in the canon. How do we make sense of treating the Gospel of Thomas as a supplement to the canon when half of it is already there?! I'm prepared to argue that the Gospel of Thomas is the earliest recording of Jesus' teachings and that the canonical gospels borrowed from, and often corrupted, teachings originating from it. That is a very different role and function from being a "supplement"! Give it a chance, and I think you'll have to agree that the hypothesis I advocate brings with it a lot of exegetical light! Peace and Light to all.

[nightoftheworld]

12:28 Todd McGowan thru Hegel: “The kingdom of God is on Mainstreet.”

[neilhundtoft]

Where are the “secrets”? Given that half of the sayings from the Gospel of Thomas are a part of Jesus' public ministry and available for us to read in the canonical gospels, are the “secret sayings” hidden in the remaining half somewhere?

[lindabalent]

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