The WORST Argument Against Protestantism

[NorthCountry]

I’m Catholic and don’t have a problem that you take that approach.

[bethsaari]

The goal is the truth. On EVERY level.

[BBassistChrist]

William Lang Craig uses an Islamic argument (the Kalam Cosmological Argument) for the existence of a theistic being. Because this is something Christians and Muslims agree on: that God exists. Many defenders of the historical Jesus also often reference atheists who admit Jesus existed. Heck, Paul occasionally used pagan references.

[Wilkins]

Gavin, I appreciate your commitment to accuracy when discussing other apologists to avoid mischaracterization. God bless.

[lastchance]

When I was younger I spent a lot of time studying to refute the errors of JW, Mormon, and other aberrations of Christian doctrine. As I get older, it seems less important to argue these points ad auseum, with little to show for it. It's even worse now with the proliferation of Islam in America. Maybe it's best to just focus our energy on preaching Christ, and Him crucified. The Holy Spirit is more than sufficient to lead people out of error.

[JohnHenry-wm]

That is fine. It is just not truly authentic because the Protestant denominations contradict themselves in core doctrines like salvation (such as baptism). So quoting from a Protestant that has a divergent view on salvation is somewhat inconsistent … isn’t it ?😅

[stevenlester]

I’d say this is true with a HUGE caveat. If you’re pulling from multiple different traditions to defend Protestantism and those sources are contradicting each other, then that is a massive problem. Just like if I Catholic were to defend mere Christianity by using Protestant quotations that contradict Catholic teachings. But yes. I’d say as long as you’re internally consistent then you’re good. I think that’s what you mean. But it’s important to clarify

[David-pbqm]

I believe the problem is a little deeper and gets at the reality of denominationalism. Defending something works best when it's defender actually exemplifies the thing defended. For example if a storefront non denominational defends protestantism and uses Lutheran liturgy as an example of the diversity of protestantism, it is implicit that he doesn't assent to it being the way church should be as he himself is not of that expression. It leads I think to a philosophy of relativism regarding all that Protestants different on. If a Catholic thinks he can find one thing that's familiar in a protestant church, he will have to find the next familiar thing in a completely different protestant church. So the lack of unity is a total game changer from the Catholic perspective.

[MarquesGoetsch]

In what church can I find the “best of Protestantism” under one roof? You have said in separate videos that I shouldn’t convert to Catholicism simply for doctrines like the real presence, infusion of grace, the possibility of losing your salvation, high church liturgy, etc because there are Protestants that defend parts of these doctrines, and the Protestant/Catholic divide isn’t really over many of these points. However, which Protestant church should I join if my Eucharistic theology and preference for liturgy most closely match Anglicans/high Lutherans, my theology on justification most closely matches Methodists, and my background is low church Reformed Baptist? I can find many doctrines in separate Protestant denominations but not necessarily in one. What am I to do? Isn’t this an argument in favor of Catholicism which can actually provide the “best of Catholicism” in reality? It seems to me that the “best of Protestantism” is scattered all over the mainline denominations and nondenominational churches, but never actually existing in one real church. Thanks for considering my thought! Love your work, Dr. Ortlund!

[curtislatham]

Sir. Thank you for your ministry, I became christian as a protestant, but felt myself attracted to Catholicism/Orthodoxy. So I doubted, but your ministry has given me confidence in my salvation.
Thank you for fighting for the faith. It cant be said enough.

[DUZCO]

Problem is when you start to apply that to your sola-skiptura..

[anissueofursincerity]

Your critic is right. The defense you said you use is the weakest of defenses. Anybody can lift out of the record favorable points of their position.
Of you want a stronger defense say that without the reformation there would ultimately be no USA.

[tpoy]

Maybe it’s because there’s no clear and definitive answer to what is the positive specific difference that makes Protestantism. With Christianity it’s more or less Trinity and Incarnation. Those clearly demarcate Christianity from Jewish and Islamic monotheism. But with Protestantism what exactly is it? It would have to be unique to Protestantism and common to all branches. Apart from rejecting Catholicism, it’s not clear what that is.

Obviously you can draw from protestant sources of various kinds to defend common things, such as sola fide etc., but to defend “Protestantism” per se first presupposes that we have an essential definition of what it is - unless we just settle for “all Christians who reject Catholicism.”

[introvertedchristian]

A lot of people take the shotgun approach. Anything they can say, however remotely disparaging, against a point of view they disagree with, they'll go for it. I see it on all sides.

[josecorpus]

It’s problem because no one holds to all types of Protestant traditions as their rule of faith

You need to defend a position that is the fullness of truth that someone can follow

No one 20% Lutheran, 20% Calvinist 20% reformer etc 😂

[joeypuvel]

I think your point is valid as long as you are pulling thoughts from thinkers (lol) who use those thoughts to arrive at the same conclusion you are defending. Otherwise, it would be like using Arius’ defense of the immutability of God in order to conclude Jesus’ immutability.

[열심게임]

So you're the pope of your own greatest church in the world

[gnomeresearch]

The problem is I can't go to a Mr. Ortlund's church and get all the best of protestantism he defends, nor can I go down to the liberal Presbyterian or conservative Presbyterian church, nor the liberal or conservative Methodist church, nor the Lutheran church, nor the non-denominational church, nor the high church Anglican, nor a collection of any protestant churches and get anything near what Gavin defends. I can't get the fullness of the faith at any of them. I can't get a coherent view of what is necessary for salvation at any of them, especially not if I pull from a collection of them. I can't get the sacraments gifted to us by Jesus himself, I can't receive Him as He directed us to, I can't engage in full communion with the Church He instructed his apostles to build and protect. Gavin's arguments, made in wonderful grace and charity I truly appreciate, have reified my faith in the wholeness of Catholicism. I am so grateful for the wonderful debates and apologetics from Catholics and those in schism as I once was. God bless you all.

[adecarion]

I am an Orthodox Christian, and I have felt your arguments recently to be very confused. So maybe my perspective can help to further the dialogue. It seems like you are creating a Frankenstein version of Protestantism that doesn't exist. Just because (some) Anglicans retain reverent worship, or (some) Lutherans believe in a version of Christ's presence in the Eucharist and (some) Baptist small groups hear some generalized confessions of various members, doesn't mean that any of these denominations are correct. They might be more correct than wrong on a particular issue, but they don't represent a singular body of doctrine. Also, these traditions are changing and unstable. The reformers themselves would not recognize the traditions that they helped to start in many cases. For instance, Luther is quoted as having said that he would rather drink raw blood with the pope than mere wine with the fanatics (referring to Zwingli). One wonders what he would have said about drinking grape juice from a plastic prewrapped cup. This proves that Protestantism is untenable as it is a moving target. You yourself are a Calvinist, which according to the tradition of the Church is a serious heresy because it distorts the nature of God so much that Calvinists and Non-Calvinists practically worship different conceptions of God. I think that perhaps one way of understanding this is to say that Protestants are more relativists. They are okay with a bare minimum of agreement on what they believe to be core issues, but they don't seem to really care that much about issues that Orthodox or Roman Catholics for that matter feel very strongly are important.

[lyterman]

It depends what kind of defense. If you say, "Protestants believe x" and cite a Lutheran, that is a small subset of Protestantism and not necessarily representative of the whole. In particular this is important with the charge that Protestants can believe just about anything within the bounds of a very small set of essential beliefs. No single Protestant denomination will claim that in its statement of belief, but taken as a whole, that statement is true of Protestantism.