Justification | A Discussion Between Eastern Orthodox and Protestants

In this episode of Faith Unaltered, your host Tyler Fowler, is joined by Eastern Orthodox Christians, Fr. John Whiteford of @AncientFaithMinistries and Dr. Beau Branson as well as Protestant Christians, Lucas Curcio and Wesley Todd of @methodministries for an informal dialogue about the theological concept of justification by faith. Are we justified by faith alone? What exactly are the differences and similarities between Protestant and Eastern Orthodox views of Justification? Find out here as the two sides actively engage with one another to get to the bottom of the Scriptural and Traditional Data concerning the TRUTH about Justification by Faith!

#Justification #Orthodox #Protestant #Dialogue

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FAIR USE NOTICE

[CupCoffee]

Excellent episode, it was great to see Fr. John Whiteford. It was very respectful and just a tiny bit heated which was great. I have an Orthodox bias, but everyone I thought was good faith.

I hope you have more Orthodox guys come on!!

[thaddeusthought]

I think the big, massive missing piece that stands out to me that ALWAYS makes this conversation unfruitful is that Orthodox and Reformed have different ideas of salvation. Their idea presupposes that salvation is being "good enough" in God's eyes and in the books of crimes that He keeps. Whereas for Orthodox salvation is about being truly like God so we can be united with Him. And thus we continue to talk right past each other because when we're saying works justify us, they're still thinking in terms of works make us good enough.

I find the most helpful way to explain it to them is that faith is like when I realize I am "in love" with someone and want to dedicate my life to them, but works of love, even when I don't feel it, ontologically keep the love alive. They don't make me good enough, and it would be unhealthy to a relationship if she kept track of such things. But doing the deeds of faith/love helps form the faith. And if we feel love for our wife, but don't act it out, we see it as shallow childish affection.

Likewise, the historical and Orthodox view of what keeps us from God is that we are not like Him. It is not that the God who is love keeps records of wrong (which Scripture says love does not do), but that the wicked deeds we do make our hearts wicked. If I am bitter and unforgiving to my abusive friend, I generally would avoid him. But if I forgive him, yet he is still abusive, he will have the experience of the distance as if he was not forgiven, because what do we have in common? How can we have a true friendship or intimacy? Likewise, what keeps us from God is not His rejection, nor a lack of forgiveness on His part. What keeps us from God is that we would find communion with Him extremely unpleasant.

So what role do works play in justification? When we are given faith by God and accept this gift, we act on it and it builds the faith and makes it full. It builds our love for God. These works are laid out by God before Creation, so there's no issue about boasting here unless one is delusional (which would render any truth ineffective). But we must say "yes" to these works as the Theotokos said yes to God, and they will build our bond with Him. Faith comes first, but it dies without works. Works are not proof of salvation, because our view is not that salvation is a guarantee of a good result by signing a verbal contract with God. We don't see salvation simply as something God gives us. Our relationship with God, our view of salvation, is much more personal. Christ IS Salvation. There is no salvation without Him as there is no marriage without my wife. She doesn't give me wife, she doesn't give me marriage, she IS these things to me.

Unfortunately, what is going on deep down inside most of Protestantism is that the primary goal isn't friendship with God, it is the catharsis and comfort of a post mortem promise. What I always see, and was shown in the video, is as soon as you suggest works are tied to justification, you hear the rebuttal "but how much is enough?" Why do they want to know that? Because if they don't have an answer, they feel insecure. I can't tell you the number of times I have heard this objection from the Reformed.

Of course, I totally understand that they think the only alternative is to live in fear. But for us Orthodox, salvation isn't actually about us. Our faith isn't that God will give us what we want: to go to the good place after death. Our faith is about God and about all of Creation. This means that a person with faith, if theoretically God sent Him to Hell, would say "this must be what's best for everyone else, glory to God in all things." We see this heart in St Paul when he's ready to go to Hell if it will save others. It's a totally different mindset.

The encounter we have with Christ as a real divine-human person is what gives us out comfort. It is an ontological reality, a relationship. It is not from a formula of Sola Fide. Our faith is in a person, not a doctrine. It is a faith we should pursue for Him, not for us. In fact, we Orthodox know that NOT having answers is actually very spiritually healthy, whereas having everything in tight knit boxes leads down very bad roads.

(I think Beau drives this home more than anyone when he keeps bringing up he's not even sure what the disagreement actually is.)

[HollyMD]

Protestant for over 30 years and I am so glad I finally found the Orthodox Church. We struggled for a long time knowing something was very wrong. Once you see the mental gymnastics they have to do to it’s mind blowing.

[alecfoster]

Treating justification different in James than in Romans sort of proves the mental gymnastics that are necessary to support the Protestant assertion in my opinion.

[Damascene]

I’ve met Fr John when he visited Canada. He is very beloved by our community.

[DCWoodWorking]

It's always edifying to hear Fr John in these discussions.

[ZachRhodes-wzpx]

May God grant Father John Whiteford many years.

[fr.johnwhiteford]

"Therefore, if it do not appear in our conversation [conduct], the faith we pretend to have is but feigned: because true faith is manifestly shewn by good living, and not by words only: as St. Augustin saith, Good living cannot be separated from true faith, which worketh by love: and St. Chrysostom, Faith is full of good works; and as soon as a man believeth, he shall be adorned with them. How plentiful it is in good works, St. Paul teacheth at large in the 11th chapter to the Hebrews; evidently declaring, that true faith is no unfruitful thing, but a thing of perfect virtue, of wonderful operation and strength, bringing forth all good motions and good works" -John Wesley, in "Of true Christian faith"

[transcendentalaesthetic]

Man…I love NOT being a Prot anymore. This great irony wherein “Jesus paid it all” but also you need to be “assured of your salvation” so you OBSESS over your sins. I don’t need “assurance” because I trust in God, His Gospel, and His Church. Simple as.

[dododo]

This was hard to listen to. I commend the patience of Father Whiteford and Mr Branson. I used to be so blind as a Protestant and make the exact same arguments these Prots did. Hearing they do not hear.

[dylantharp]

Enjoyed the discussion☦️ Perry Robinson of Energetic Procession would be a great interview on this topic as well.

[nicholasglassburn]

Dr. Beau cracks me up. I’m… not exactly sure what we’re arguing about 😂

[LA]

There’s a fundamental difference of what exactly The Grace of God is. For the prots, it’s a legal transaction, for EO it’s Divine Energy.

[DustyBooks]

Now that I am 46 and moving into Orthodoxy I get so angry over the “faith alone” argument. How it is taught in most churches does not produce fruit.

[blockpartyvintage]

Lord have mercy. These Protestant guys are having such a hard time. Instead of dealing with what Scripture states they just repeat the last statement, again. 😊

[MalarkusD]

For all its promise of assurance, it is rhe Protestants in this debate who anxiously press Fr Whiteford for details on exactly what works justify, and who speculate over how much corn is too much corn. Despite believing there are thjngs rhey need to do, Fr Whiteford and Dr Branson seem much more calm and assured.

[highlander]

4 minutes in, and it's already paradoxical and comical. Protestants explaining Greek word meanings to Orthodox. O tempora, o mores!

[robrog]

As one who has studied Wesley's theology and Patristics formally at the graduate level, I think the term "justification" takes on a broader sense in Orthodoxy to include not only--to use Wesley's terms--a "relative change" (positional righteousness) but also a "real change, " what Wesleyans would call "regeneration." That is to say, most Protestants, including Wesleyans, reduce justification to the "relative change" only, whereas Eastern Orthodox would say that justification is a catchall for not only positional righteousness but also the interior work of regeneration. Thus, the Orthodox would say that Wesley, although very close to the Greek patristic view, tends to be reductionistic in his view of justification, since he is following the Reformers on this note. That is, the Orthodox are more holistic--Justification is both imputed AND imparted. A declarative word from God is a speech-act: the declaration makes it an ontological reality.

I'm surprised the these Wesleyans will revert to classical Reformed arguments on Pauline justification rather than understanding Paul's "interlocutor, " which underscores that the NPP is a better context to read Paul than what these two boys are doing. 

Btw, Lucas doesn't know how to debate and he only has a cursory knowledge of Wesley, and he comes across as a pseudo-intellectual. Whiteford seems to know Wesley better, and Wesleyan theologian Randy Maddox's book "Responsible Grace" underscores how Lucas's view of Wesleyan theology is truncated. And he has no understanding of Orthodox soteriology. Lots of building straw men.

As far as Luther, a whole theological system should not be built on a person who is having a crisis of consciousness in faith.

Lastly, the Epistle of James is framed by the notion of a favorable eschatological verdict at the Last Judgment, which coheres with his notion of Justification by Faith and Works.

[Daciaforever]

The 1:00:00 mark was the nail in the coffin for Lucas. He completely missed the point because he’s blinded by the faith alone mindset above everything else. Sola Fide is really the ultimate argument against Protestantism

[MaybeJohn]

Came back to listen to the first 20-30mins I missed. This was an enjoyable discussion. Please have the panel back on for part 2 if they are willing!