Sam Altman on His Feud with Elon Musk—and the Battle for AI's Future

Just a few years ago, as AI technology was beginning to spill out of start-ups in Silicon Valley and hitting our smartphones, the political and cultural conversation about this nascent science was not yet clear. I remember asking former Google CEO Eric Schmidt on Honestly in January 2022 if AI was just like the sexy robot in Ex Machina. I literally said to him, “What is AI? How do you define it? I do not understand.”

Today, not only has it become clear what AI is and how to use it—ChatGPT averages more than 120 million active daily users and processes over a billion queries per day—but it’s also becoming clear with the political and cultural ramifications—and the arguments and debates—around AI are going to be over the next few years.

Among those big questions are who gets to lead us into this new age of AI technology, what company is going to get there first and achieve market dominance, how those companies are structured so that bad actors with nefarious incentives can’t manipulate this technology for evil purposes, and what role the government should play in regulating all of this.

At the center of these important questions are two men: Sam Altman and Elon Musk. And if you haven’t been following, they aren’t exactly in alignment.

They started off as friends and business partners. In fact, Sam and Elon co-founded OpenAI in 2015. But over the years, Elon Musk grew increasingly frustrated with OpenAI until he finally resigned from the board in 2018. That feud escalated this past year when Elon sued Sam and OpenAI on multiple occasions to try to prevent the company from launching a for-profit arm of the business, a structure that Elon claims is never supposed to happen in OpenAI—and he also argues that changing its structure in this way might even be illegal.

On the one hand, this is a very complex disagreement. To understand every single detail of it, you probably need a law degree and special expertise in American tax law. But you don’t need a degree or specialization to understand that at its heart, this feud is about something much bigger and more existential than OpenAI’s business model, although that’s extremely important.

What this is really a fight over is who will ultimately be in control of a technology that some say, if used incorrectly, could very well make human beings obsolete.

So, you know, the stakes are low.

Here to tell his side of the story is Sam Altman. We talk about where AI is headed, and why he thinks superintelligence—the moment where AI surpasses human capabilities—is closer than ever. We talk about the perils of AI bias and censorship, why he donated $1 million to Trump’s inaugural fund as a person who has long opposed Trump, what happens if America loses the AI race to a foreign power like China, and of course, what went wrong between him and the richest man on Earth.

[IntellectCorner]

*Interview Starts at* 6:16

6:44 - The Transformation of AI Since 2023
7:43 - AI's Integration into Society
8:42 - Personal Use of AI by Sam Altman
9:55 - Predictions on the Emergence of Superintelligence
10:28 - The Impact of Superintelligence on Society and the Economy
12:39 - The Shift from Nonprofit to a Hybrid Model at OpenAI
13:44 - Elon Musk's Lawsuits Against OpenAI
14:18 - The Fundamental Conflict and Speculations on Musk's Motivations
16:55 - The Importance of a For-Profit Arm for OpenAI's Growth
17:54 - The Financial Realities of Developing AI
19:15 - OpenAI's Response to the Conflict
20:53 - The Role of Transparency and the Nonprofit Status
22:29 - Misaligned Incentives and the Shift to For-Profit
23:31 - The Role of Government in AI Development
23:59 - The Debate on Regulation and Competition in AI
25:24 - The Nonprofit Status and Profit Distribution of OpenAI
26:22 - Hopes for AI's Impact on Society
27:37 - Sam Altman's Equity and Financial Stake in OpenAI
29:32 - Hypothetical Restructuring of OpenAI
32:58 - The Debate on AI Regulation and Its Impact on Competition
34:35 - The Argument for and Against Government Regulation of AI
37:26 - The Importance of US-Based AI Infrastructure and Supply Chain
37:57 - The Analogy Between AI Development and the Manhattan Project
39:23 - The Decline in State Capacity and the Role of Science in Society
43:37 - OpenAI's Collaboration with Anduril Industries on AI for Military Applications
44:36 - The AI Arms Race with China
45:42 - The Strategy of Cooperation and Competition with China
47:57 - Addressing Bias and Censorship in AI
49:07 - User Flexibility and System Behavior in AI
50:06 - The Impossibility of a Politically Neutral AI
50:30 - The Responsibility to Fight Pernicious Ideas with AI
51:27 - The Idea of Transparency in AI Behavior Changes
52:48 - Sam Altman's Donation to Trump's Inauguration and Political Views
54:16 - The Patriotic Duty of AI Development

[manuelmao]

I gave Gemini 2.0 Flash Thinking Experimental the transcript of this interview and got this incredible set of timestamps
00:00 Introduction: Fundamental Conflict with Elon Musk
00:33 Advertisement for The Free Press
01:58 Introduction to the Interview with Sam Altman
02:35 Understanding AI's Evolution and Impact
03:12 Key Questions Around AI Leadership and Regulation
03:47 Elon Musk's Criticism of OpenAI and Sam Altman
04:22 History of the Feud and Lawsuits
04:59 Feud is About Control of the Technology
05:30 Topics Covered in the Interview
06:04 Interview Begins
06:44 How AI has Changed Since April 2023
07:15 Rapid Improvement of AI Technology
07:43 Integration of AI into Society
08:12 Sam Altman's Personal Use of Chat GPT
08:42 Chat GPT's Search Integration
09:55 Predicting Super Intelligence
10:28 What is Super Intelligence?
11:39 Public Battle with Elon Musk: Background
12:09 Summarizing the Conflict: OpenAI's Origins and Shift
13:44 Accuracy of the Summary and Elon's Earlier Stance
14:18 Fundamental Conflict Between Altman and Musk
14:51 Speculation on Elon's Motive
15:22 OpenAI's Structure and Mission
16:55 Elon's Desire for Control
17:22 Importance of OpenAI's For-Profit Arm
17:54 Financial Needs for AI Development
18:22 Computational Power Requirements
18:48 Squaring Altman's Comments on Elon with "Bully" Description
19:15 Public Nature of the Conflict on Twitter
19:47 OpenAI's Response Memo and Timeline
20:23 Chat GPT's Summary of the Conflict
21:22 OpenAI's Focus on Building AGI
21:59 OpenAI's Initial Emphasis on Transparency and Non-Profit Status
22:29 Shifting to a For-Profit Model: Adapting to Reality
23:04 Focus on Developing Safe AI Models
23:31 Societal Pressure and the Power of Researchers
23:59 AI Development in the Hands of Private Companies
24:30 Meta Siding with Elon and Concerns About OpenAI's Structure
24:57 Musk's Concerns About Non-Profit to For-Profit Transition
25:24 Altman's Response to Meta's Letter
25:54 Potential Reasons for Meta's Involvement
26:22 Clarifying the Non-Profit's Role
26:56 Who Profits Most from OpenAI's Success?
27:37 Analogy to the Transistor
28:10 Altman's Equity in OpenAI
28:39 Understanding the Fixation on Equity
29:05 Regrets About Initial Structure Decisions
29:32 How Altman Would Structure OpenAI From the Beginning
29:57 Key Learnings About AI Development
30:24 Elon's Role in Getting OpenAI Off the Ground
30:55 Elon's Harsh Comments and Trust
31:27 Altman's Perspective on Elon's Behavior
31:54 Impersonal Nature of Elon's Attacks
32:26 Competing in the Marketplace vs. the Courtroom
32:58 Altman as a Proponent of AI Regulation
33:28 The Role of Regulation in AI
34:07 Arguments Against Over-Regulation
34:35 Concerns from Smaller AI Startups About Regulation
35:02 Regulation at the Frontier of AI Development
35:31 Regulation of Super Intelligence
36:01 Importance of "How" and "When" for Regulation
36:37 Mark Andreesen's Perception of Biden Administration's AI Policy
37:04 Altman's Experience with the Biden Administration
37:26 Altman's View on the Biden Administration's Tech Policy
37:57 Priorities for the Next Administration
38:28 Analogy to the Manhattan Project and Government Involvement
38:59 Differences Between AI and Nuclear Weapons
39:23 Arguments for Government Control of Powerful Technologies
39:56 Decline in State Capacity and Lack of Science Leadership
40:30 The Need for Expert Guidance on AI Policy
41:06 Shifting Public Perception of Science and Technology
41:36 Cultural Vibe Shift and Excitement About Growth
42:28 Altman's Perspective on the Cultural Shift
42:59 Excitement for Business vs. Science
43:37 OpenAI's Agreement with Anduril for Military Applications
44:07 Change in Stance on AI for Weaponry
44:36 The AI Arms Race with China
45:12 Implications of China Winning the AI Arms Race
45:42 Cooperation vs. Competition with China
46:13 Altman's Version of "Peace Through Strength"
46:41 Collaboration with China on AI
47:09 Current Collaboration with China
47:34 Altman as AI Regulation Chief
48:03 Bias and Censorship in AI: The Gemini Example
48:38 Addressing Bias at Chat GPT
49:07 User Flexibility and Default Behaviors
49:35 Transparency in Model Behavior
50:06 Inevitability of Political Viewpoints in AI
50:30 Personalization to Address Bias
51:00 Responsibility to Fight Pernicious Ideas
51:27 User Preferences vs. Optimal Learning Methods
51:59 Transparency in Algorithm Changes
52:24 User Control and Customization
52:48 Altman's Donation to Trump's Inauguration
53:15 Altman's Vibe Shift and Focus on Growth
53:43 Importance of Growth and Economic Success
54:16 Growth as a Patriotic Duty
54:41 Lightning Round: Flying Objects Over New Jersey
54:49 Twitter Under Elon Musk
54:52 AI Friend for Child
54:56 Social Media for Child
54:58 Screen Time for Child
55:00 Favorite Sports Car
55:05 Favorite of His Own Cars
55:09 Favorite Movie
55:12 Normal Hobbies
55:28 Building a Treehouse
55:38 Boxing Logan Paul
55:41 World War III in 2025
55:44 New Year's Resolution
55:49 Thank You and Conclusion

[kdogg]

Bari tried her best but this guy is never going to say anything genuine. His every word is designed to further the interests of his company and make money. He sounds like his soulless AI.

[creatorsremose]

His marketing speech is atrocious. Beyond the annoying strained voice and his Zuckerberg-esque mannequin demeanor, so much of what he's saying is exaggerated or simply untrue. 11:02 What he calls AI isn't even AI and what he defined as "super intelligence" is as arbitrary and uninspired and the rest of his babbling. And then the hypocrisy around Musk - I mean, Altman's betrayal was published only a few weeks ago. For him to weep about being bullied by Musk after the scam he tried to pull was actually quite comical.

[laughingliberaldad]

Love you Bari. I really wish you asked Sam about the OpenAI whistleblower who was just found dead.

[Terioth]

Hey Bari. Here's a tip. No one wants to hear you talk for 6 minutes to start your video. We want to get to the person who we clicked the video to see

[skytech]

I don't trust a single word out of his mouth. now he is also throwing shade at Marc Andreessen!? he is a snake

[coumadin]

It's really hard to think this guy is even 1% genuine

[LAJ-se]

"I think the companies are going to do the right thing" 😂

[MegaMijit]

Timestamps (Powered by Merlin AI)
00:07 - Fundamental conflicts between Sam Altman and Elon Musk revolve around AI governance and competition.
02:19 - Sam Altman and Elon Musk's feud highlights critical AI governance issues.
07:02 - AI technology has advanced rapidly and is now widely integrated into daily life.
09:00 - Sam Altman discusses the profound shift in search behavior and the concept of superintelligence.
13:24 - Elon Musk's legal battle with OpenAI centers on profit versus public good.
15:39 - Sam Altman discusses AI competition and OpenAI's mission amidst Musk's influence.
19:10 - The feud highlights ethical dilemmas in AI's development and profit motives.
21:03 - Sam Altman addresses legal disputes with Elon Musk regarding AI development.
24:41 - Sam Altman discusses AI's nonprofit versus for-profit dynamics amidst Meta's support for Elon Musk.
26:25 - Sam Altman discusses the societal impact and profitability of AI advancements.
30:04 - Sam Altman reflects on his complex relationship with Elon Musk amid AI's future.
31:47 - Sam Altman discusses the complexities of his rivalry with Elon Musk.
35:27 - Sam Altman discusses the need for AI regulation amidst concerns of superintelligence.
37:14 - Sam Altman critiques the Biden Administration's approach to AI management.
40:57 - Cultural shifts impact belief in science and technology's role in progress.
42:41 - Sam Altman reflects on scientific enthusiasm and AI's military applications.
46:23 - Collaboration with China in AI is crucial for global strategy.
48:01 - Sam Altman discusses bias in AI technology and its impact on user trust.
51:30 - Clear communication and user preference support are essential for AI tool functionality.
53:05 - Sam Altman emphasizes the importance of growth for America's future and AI's role.

[christrejbal]

Great interview Bari. You pose thought provoking questions with enough pushback/digging to make it stand out 👌🏻

[ReflectionOcean]

Insights By "YouSum Live"

00:00:00 Elon Musk and Sam Altman's conflict over AI control
00:00:18 Elon Musk's early support for OpenAI
00:00:40 Shift from nonprofit to for-profit model
00:03:36 Concerns over AI's potential misuse
00:07:52 AI's rapid integration into daily life
00:10:12 Superintelligence may arrive sooner than expected
00:33:00 Importance of AI regulation discussed
00:45:00 AI's role in national security emphasized
00:46:00 Need for collaboration in AI development
00:54:10 Growth in AI seen as patriotic duty

Insights By "YouSum Live"

[Mark.S.Hamilton]

So she crucially left out the fact that Sam Altman continually mentioned that he did not have equity in the company and he did it for the love of it. He testified in front of Congress as much. Then this later shifted to him having a 10 billion dollar stake. This is such a big thing to not include, that I now know that this is not a reputable channel, and this is nothing more than a brand campaign for Sam Altman. Given that this program's name is honestly, it was already kind of suspect lol 🙄 can't be any more on the nose.

[NotJustNinjas]

Amazing consumer use case example of real-time GPT Sam mentioned, just this week: Instead of opening chrome, searching movie title, selecting theater, scrolling to movie, specifying date, we used only ONE button and voice-dictated the prompt "we live in zip code 12345, we want to see sonic the hedgehog 3, are there times it is playing near us tonight?" got a full real time list instantly. So satisfying. If GPT had an Alexa-like wake on the phone or 'hey google' and already knew where we lived it would be 🎉

[nirgosh]

Thank you Bari, but with Altman, it's a waste of time. It's like an interview with Anthony Blinken or Merrick Garland, or John Kirby.
Not a single true fact can be revealed by talking to him. All the information is cooked. So smart. Such a politician.

[derekcarday]

with an educational background in AI, I argue that AI is actually LESS clear as to what it is since ChatGPT

[BrianMosleyUK]

Last note. Sam deserves full credit for igniting the race to *generally available* and *accessible* AI. Google would still be playing in the lab, Elon wouldn't have sniffed the opportunity enough to go 'all-in' - Zuckerberg wouldn't have felt threatened enough to enlist free labour world wide via open source. Sam is a hero, yes - flawed but the results speak for themselves - OpenAI is shipping the next generation of reasoning models and they're generally scientifically very useful.

[green_monday]

That administration meeting with AI players -- we need 3rd party scientists, NOT the stakeholders. And then more than anything NO politician over 70 should be a part of that meeting. These folks can't even program the time on a VHS machine. It's frightening.

[HollyReynolds]

“… and then there was an emergent property at scale”… I would argue these “subtle” emergent properties that occur when companies scale a product, service or create solutions for mass production often end up resulting in major problems for the masses at some point. We need to pay more attention to those emergent issues and not downplay them. And certainly not overlook them because they still enable companies to provide at scale.

[mmnotes]

Bari is the best interviewer in the country right now