Anne Boleyn & Catherine Howard. with Gareth Russell.

In this episode, I am joined by historian and broadcaster Gareth Russell to discuss the circumstances which led to the executions of Anne Boleyn and, six years later, her cousin Catherine Howard. Their fates may have been the same, an executioners block at the Tower of London, but by comparing and contrasting the events which led up to the scaffold we can learn more about how each got to that point.

Gareth Russell explores the events surrounding the downfall of each of the ill-fated Queens of Henry VIII in this new perspective on a familiar story and reveals a surprising fact...that Henry wrote a play about Anne Boleyn's "sexual misdemeanours" before her trial!

#AnneBoleyn #HenryVIII #CatherineHoward
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About Philippa
Philippa is a Historian and History Event Organiser

Philippa Lacey Brewell lives in Central England and is well respected in her field as a historian and tour guide. She is the owner and founder of British History Tours, a tour company for those who love British History.

Philippa entertains thousands each week with her videos and stories from across the UK and British History. This ability to engage an audience, as well as being an expert in travelling the historical sites of the UK, makes her your perfect guide.

[nicolen.]

Fascinating interview! Loved it! I agree Henry did not think Anne was guilty, just wanted a solution to get rid of her. If he was a classic narcissist, he simply refused to take responsibility that he was infatuated, obsessed with her. He convinced (most likely) himself that Anne cast a spell on him, purposely manipulated him to pursue her/— causing him to break from Rome to divorce Katherine and marry her. In his mind, ?he had to blame her for wreaking havoc, causing divisions in English and Spanish Royal courts and its society (splitting loyalties toward Katherine and Henry and Anne). In reality, if Anne just became his mistress (in a physical sense) from the minute he pursued her, she would not have lost her. head. But then, most likely would never have been the Queen. Henry never really loved her. The man was probably incapable of attaching himself, loving someone in a true sense. It seems to him, he can easily switch his feelings for someone on a “on/off” basis.

[kayteeart]

Just catching up on old videos! Love this one. I’m hearing the section on the British custom of sending pre teens to live with households of friends and family. I just realized the connection! My family still did that in the 20th century! My mother and great aunt were sent young to live with their aunt and great aunt (same person respectively) at the age of about 5-7! I knew this of course but just now made the connection that it was the same phenomenon from Anne and Catherine! From my mother’s retelling of the experience, I can only imagine how disruptive and emotionally impactful that was … for my mother, it was quite devastating. She took it in her stride though and understood the “duty” call. Great interview as always!

[alayneperrott]

Great interview! Gareth Russell is always interesting. Not only is he very much in command of all the sources and their reliability, but he invariably has original insights to offer.

[richardpearce]

Fascinating so many terrific insights into the downfall of Anna Boleyn, the one thing that i think adds to the cocktail of Henry's narcissism and Anne's failure to bear a son are her unfortunate remarks while playing the courtly love game. "Dead men's shoes" was treasonous and she did say it and that i feel could easily have been a tipping point that would enrage Henry and be one storm too many.

[ElliotOracle]

I could listen to Gareth Russell all day and night. Completely brilliant. 😊

[maryloumawson]

Oh, WELL DONE! I've have had this question for years and years about the reason why Anne's execution was conducted by an imported French expert swordsman, and Catherine was not accorded the same consideration. Some people seem to think it's due to Henry's former devotion to Anne, and proves he really loved her. I have always thought that complete balderdash. But I could only speculate as to the true reason. Even when it is mentioned, it is never as a comparison to Catherine, only given as proof of his regard for Anne. So I was very excited to hear the question, and appreciate the historian's efforts to answer it. I must admit, I never thought about something so mundane and pragmatic as the weather, but I agree it is a likely factor. My own idea runs in the direction, as you also suggested, of Cromwell. Cromwell was a political operator, and a monarchist. He would have been aware of the "optics" of killing a Queen. He and Henry had upended the kingdom, the Church and the succession so that Henry could replace his queen with this woman. I think Cromwell wanted to show "proper deference" to the queen he had made, in order to legitimize his action. No one had ever executed a queen before. So he made proper plans for the result he knew was forthcoming.

[maryw]

Anne’s downfall rests squarely on the shoulders of Henry, however, the architect of said downfall was Cromwell. Henry neither had the legal skills nor the finesse to orchestrate such a complicated political and judicial farce. I see it as another English King demanding “ Will no one rid me of this troublesome priest (wife) ?

[kayteeart]

This was one of my favorite interviews! So many light bulbs went off! Thanks for the thought provoking questions and responses!

[tesssanders]

I'm in my 70s now and watched Henry VIII starring Charles Laughton (great movie) and I got my degree in history, reading and watching everything I could find on Henry VIII (just finished Gareth Russell book twice! loved it).
I think Catherine was just too young. Poor Catherine wasn't even given a handbook of "Rules of being Queen What you can and cannot do!"' If she'd only had a guiding hand..

[justme-tjjt]

Of course, Henry VIII wrote this play. I think he wrote it to convince himself and others of Anne's guilt.

[edwinatonna]

I was so thrilled to come across this riveting podcast of Gareth Russell’s, although I’m not a historian, I love Tudor history.
I’ve always had a belief that, although I don’t think Henry was a psychopath. I strongly believe he was a narcissist. with everything I’ve read and watched I’ve never heard this mentioned before so I was thrilled to hear that Gareth was of the same opinion. I jumped for joy when I heard this and can’t wait to buy his books.
I was also enthralled to hear
Anne Boleyn’s earlier Irish roots from one of his recent podcast .
A million thanks Gareth 👏

[hjahansouz]

Just finished the Young, the Dammed and the Fair. Excellent book!

[dukagardiner]

I have been reading for few years on Henry VIII, and still believe that living under his rule must have been a horrific and terrifying existence

[JJMarie]

This was a great discussion. I would love to hear more comparing the falls of Anne Boleyn and Catherine Howard. Also more about what the psychiatrist had to say about Henry!

[lisaamber]

Great interview. Many thanks. I hadn’t really thought about the differences between the two wives. I think the person who brought anne down was henry due to his narcissism. I had no idea he’d written a play about her misdemeanours.

[LaSirenaSaggia]

23:04 Fabulous episode, thank you both for your scholarship! As a licensed mental health professional I just want to flag up that Henry’s devaluation (and ultimate destruction) of Anne was fueled directly by his idealization of Jane. Elizabeth’s gender and the subsequent miscarriages planted seeds of resentment, but narcissists create triangles in every social scenario they’re placed in, and especially in romance. It’s the only way they know how to relate to others: the perceived goodness of the new partner is the mirror image of the perceived badness of the old partner. The clear contrast in the life experience, style, and personalities of Anne and Jane makes Henry’s progression from one to the other a perfect case study in dysfunctional narcissistic “love”. Up to and including Henry bullying Jane into silence about political matters by referring to Anne’s demise: he’s explicitly telling Jane that she too can be devalued and destroyed.

[lisawatts]

I never really thought about that fact that Anne would have needed a lady in waiting to "help" her commit adultery. And there isn't one, yet Catherine has lady rochford helping her... I just don't understand why she would have helped Catherine knowing if it was ever discovered that they would be in serious trouble.

[marshaprice]

Comparing Anne and Henry’s relationship to Titanic’s voyage is a great analogy! I completely agree that Anne and Henry did not have “one of history’s great love stories”.

[nikkisiddall]

I try to watch anything Gareth makes….I love his take on history….x

[pinkvivi]

Amazing interview. I could listen to Gareth Russell talk history all day long. I’m regards to Anne’s method of execution, I’m wondering if it had deep meaning for both Anne and Henry. Perhaps Anne’s education and grasp of French culture and language, which attracted Henry, as a common thread in their relationship… I think he was sending a message of some sorts. And he also wanted something dramatic too. Any thoughts?