Why Do Pros Do Low Cadence Training ?

[michaelgriffiths]

I think Dylan Johnsons rationale was that current scientific studies didnt demonstrate performance gains from low cadence. Based on evidence availible at the time this seemed a sound prognosis. However, where some of what he said got a bit hazy is high torque - low cadence is not just, "mashing", especially if integrated as part of a training protocol with the overall load calibrated. The rationale of Strength and Conditioning coaches/studies is high weight low reps (3-6reps) will generate a best return for endurance athletes - when done well. Perhaps this last bit is key?

Whilst no study historicall evidences the benefits of high torque - low cadence the rationale that it strengthens neuromuscular pathways does seem sound. Dylan Johnsons argument was high torque low cadence is essentially like lifting very high reps (highly specific) or endurance range ie 20 reps +. Science in a weight lifting context does not evidence this as the best ROI for endurance athletes. The argument made is for low reps heavy weight is it generates a stress/adaptation response resulting in strength gains (& the recruitment of fast twitch fibres depending accenuated by how lifts are done). There is empirical evidence for this approach.

However, the question this video provokes is does high torque work more readily enable an elite cyclist to incorporate a greater body of work done than two or even three trips to the gym per week? This is harder to quantify but putting out 400 watts at 50 rpm /700nm may prove more beneficial to Jay Vine and create a sense of training momentum verses Jay Vine in the gym. It's clear UAE have a cohesive approach appearing to be doing less but higher quality Z2 with high torque intervals. Jay appeared to be asserting this was creating greater training momentum for him/ other UAE riders than his experience at Alpecin? Or it's honeymoon period. Id argue the cumulative effect of WVA being at Jumbo may be giving him a training advantage over MVDP now?

The real skill of physiologists/ coaches is the integration and emphasis of each element into a plan with peaking considerations alongside the personal physiology of the athlete being taken into account.
I agree with Charlie's assertion that

a) there may be something in high torque even if the papers arent oublished yet

b) a combo of both weights and high torque is probably the optimum if you have the time/capacity.

3-5years from now, will there be scientific studies supporting high torque training? Quite possibly.

Finally, I'd be interested to know if studies could investigate if an approach where weight training is used in a cyclist training protocol to generate muscle/increase absolute strength and correct imbalances alongside high torque training being used to strengthen neuromuscular pathways.... the hypothesis would be weights to increase improve muscular performance with torque to maximise what you have and move towards specificity....
I'm no physiologist but seems it may be helpful....

[mostwhowanderarelost]

Good video. FYI the easiest way to get torque is just by taking torque = power / (cadence*2pi/60), where power is just expressed in watts, cadence in rpm, and torque in newton meters.

This probably gives a good intuitive feel for it as well, as you can see that it varies inversely with cadence. Ie 300w at 90rpm gives you torque = 300 / (2*pi*90/60) = 31.83. The same power at 45 rpm gives 63.66 Nm (exactly double). Jay Vine said 400w at 50rpm, which gives 76.4 nm, which is in line with him saying he worked up to over 70 nm. Cheers

[reubenhowden]

A twitter thread is not scientific evidence. Just because someone coaches WT riders doesn't make them right. You are using the appealing to an authority fallacy there. You manipulated the question Dylan Johnson was asking. He asked if low cadence work was as good as lifting weights. He didn't say low cadence work was not effective at all.

[occyman]

I am old school racer and these high low cadence high torque repeats were an absolute staple of my training when I was elite. Also a couple of days a week I ride a 75inch fixed gear in a hilly area, grinding up hill and skiing over 180rpm downhill. Amazing for fitness.

[ricf]

I'm 62 years old. My average cadence for the past year was 60 rpm. High torque but not mad levels. In less than two years I've raised my VO2 from 155 to 177. As for sustained work? 4 Watts/kg for 100 minutes. 5 Watts/kg for 20 minutes (Denham 2 little chalfont TT) Strava KOM. It works. Ok, I train two to three hours each day, but there you go.

[lsc]

Use a single speed to commute and get the best of both worlds. Grind up hills, and spin out on flats.

[zaahierstanley]

The thing is low cadence work forms part of a holistic training program which include gym work, high cadence work etc

[philipb.]

The idea behind it is to achieve a switch in your muscle fibers or at least an adaptation to become more oxidative, so you decrease your vLamax with that

[grammaticus]

Honest question--not being sarcastic: Is there any specific *evidence* provided here, other than pros and coaches saying "this is what we do" (keeping in mind that pros and coaches swore by skinny tires at ultra-high psi until not that long ago)? That pros are setting new power PBs after training blocks or from season to season can't be surprising (and again, is there any clear evidence that it is specifically coming from the high torque sessions?).

[Avianthro]

My own recent personal experience confirms that torque training, even a very small amount, and maybe that's really all we need, does give a notable improvement in performance (FTP)...Just a couple of weeks ago I started adding a very brief session of about 5 minutes' worth of high torque-low cadence, a ride around my local block with a 1 km 4-5% climb in it, a ride on what would have normally been a no-ride recovery day. On the next day's session I was able, seemingly without any extra effort, to make a new personal best for the time around my normal course, and have been feeling stronger on all rides after that. Doing the little torque ride was the only change I made in my normal training over the last several months...I don't generally "train" in the sense that I deliberately seek to increase performance since I'm already satisfied with my fitness level which fits my time and money budget. No, this isn't rigorous science, but coupled with what the pros are saying, it's good enough to make me believe.

[belindaross]

Great workout with Hank and his crew, luv the banter to keep u distracted

[luiscolon]

I would think that low cadence high torque permits you to train fast twitch fibers significantly longer than you could otherwise. You could engage NM type fibers for 4 minutes at a time or longer vs. 60sec at your preferred cadence. Can it provide an endurance adaption to those fast twitch fibers.

[luiscolon]

I can see LC being very beneficial if muscular endurance is a limiter. LC work permits you to put in a lot of work in that department without significantly taxing your CV system.

[ramsden]

So many differing views, just do what you feel works. Since I did high resistance low RPM I got way better on climbs. It’s obvious it works because your legs have to work harder.

[Behine.DeChilis]

Not sure if it makes sense, but I have been using low cadence work to train for hilly races. My home area is flat as a board.

[bonoms]

I don't know if tp lets you create custom field but you can find torque by dividing power with cadence.

[XavierHipolito]

Jay Vine said *"Less gym work, more low cadence work"* seems that one manages to provoke the same physiological effect as the other, and it is wrong. Low cadence work is still endurance work. If you do a proper gym session with high loads you can't mimic that, maybe only sprints.

[cfau]

This season my coach prescribed a lot of torque work..im keen to see the results..from 4min reps at 70nm im now at 10min ~75nm @ 40rpm…i can see the progression..but will it translate to better performance for racing?!

[fangxx]

Just because it's good for the pros DOES NOT mean it's good for the average athlete.

[bee_whisper]

surely its context specific for example im never going to realistically ride at 130rpm unless sprinting but to have that as an option means its there as an option ?