Counter-Strike's Map Pool is Bad.

Hey! This is just an edit of the stream I did a few weeks ago, i hope you all dont mind me putting this out here still. Back to your regularly scheduled penguin programming soon!

If you read this, comment "you have no idea how good cobblestone was!"

Music used:
Everhood OST - At The Race Track
Tekken OST - Kitsch
GC - Grass
GC - Drama
Bail Bonds - I Feel It All So Deeply
Everhood OST - Flower Shop

#cs2 #CSGO #Penguin

[PenguinCS]

hey yeah this video was originally supposed to go up before but I thought i'd introduce my face in a more traditional video before you get blasted with it in this one, hope you still enjoy!

[iffailedinglesh]

I like dust 2 and don’t mind mirage, but I believe the addition of dust 2 was the perfect opportunity to remove mirage.

[lunaticluke]

I've just come back from the Blast London event, and I'm not sure if it was audible on the streams but - the entire arena was booing every map pick because of how stale they were. The pool as it stands is awful to watch. Of the 13 total matches, Vertigo was banned 13 times, the next highest ban was Ancient on 9 and Nuke on 8. Dust2 was the most picked map with 10, next was Inferno with just 6 picks.

It's important to note why Dust2 was removed, it wasn't just that the map was played out and stale, but because Valve recognised that significant changes to the map to freshen it up would completely eliminate the identity of this iconic map. It was given it it's own little queue in CS:GO too as recognition of it's importance. In my opinion, Mirage now needs the same treatment. We need to remove Dust2 and replace it with the incoming Cache from FMPONE, we need to get Mirage out next and get either another community map into the pool or bring back Cobblestone with a really, insanely huge rework. We haven't seen Cobble in 5 years, we can afford to drastically change it.

In the end though, I think the most significant change for Pro matches would be to return to single pick / single ban with a randomiser for the third map. If teams don't want that then the map pool needs to be made bigger. You cannot have it both ways.

[koshercheese]

Hey Penguin, love your videos bro but I wish you would do a little more research for your videos. The versions of Overpass and Cobblestone you showed where the first releases of those maps, they were not the versions of the maps used in the map pool for Cologne 2014 and on. Also the pick ban system that randomized the 3rd map only lasted until Cologne 2016 not thru Eleague 2017.

[_-HK-_]

One thing worth considering is how one note a map pool is. Since different maps have different styles of play. Mirage playes different from Inferno that plays different from Nuke. But in my opinion, Mirage and D2 have very similar styles of play. Long angles, aim heavy and traditional 3-lane layout. Cache would also fit this criteria so I would not want to see a map pool with all three of those maps. Having variety in the style of play is good ímo.

[irkedcs]

The thing is about the best players liking the usual maps, not just d2, speaks to your point directly. Theyre good on those maps, and they like winning. But in general, the more you play the game, the more you are really just playing the same damn maps repeatedly, while becoming both more knowledgeable about the game and more stubborn about learning any new maps.

CS players need to have new maps FORCEFULLY RAMMED DOWN THEIR THROATS... until they like it. Thats pretty much Stockholm syndrome right there, but it works and is good for the game bc it helps non-demented gamers from getting bored with CS.

[UndrcoverCactus]

A large reason I think the current map pool is bad is how similar all the maps are. Dust2, Mirage, Anubis, Ancient, and Vertigo all have the same general map layout, known as the "4-Box" or "3-Lane" layout, where the map consists of 3 main contact points between CTs and Ts, being the two bombsites on opposite ends of the map, and a "Mid" section that connects the two bombsites. Nuke and Inferno are the only maps that don't fit this general formula.

In the past there was more of a balance between these "standard" layouts and more unique layouts, as Overpass, Train, and Cobblestone all didn't fit the 4-box design, but nowadays, we have a ton more 4-box layouts than unique ones. I find each of these 4-box layouts have a lot of similarities in how they are played. Because of this, I find the map variety to be a little lacking. My general approach to playing each of these maps feels incredibly similar on each of these 5, just with different angles.

Nuke and Inferno feel much more fresh as they play very differently from the other 5, but this isn't enough to feel like much variety, and it's made the competitive side of the game much less interesting for me. I vastly preferred when the map pool was more varied with Overpass, Train, and Cobblestone in the mix. I get that it's more difficult to balance these more unique layouts as there isn't already a ton of map design theory to look back on, like you do with 4-box layouts. I also get that it's harder to make players start to like more unique and experimental maps, but IMO it's worth it to include them even if it takes longer to get the map to a high quality state, just to provide that extra variety.

[jbank]

Valve: remakes overpass for CS2
also Valve: removes overpass from the map pool

[sidewaysfcs]

Tournament pool, yes, 9 maps.
Dust2
Nuke
Train
Inferno
Tuscan
Overpass
Mirage
Ancient
Anubis

Reserve Group:
Cache
Vertigo
Thera
Cobblestone
Sub-Zero
Season
Austria

Nostalgia Group:
Aztec (with a Ancient paintcoat and some changes)
Fire (someone will remember this)
Comrade (barely anyone will remember this)
Prodigy (for the love of God, it was the first de_ map)
Dust 1

[oliversharpe]

My opinion is that in professional CS the gameplay has become too standardised because the maps aren't rotated enough, which makes for a more boring viewer experience. I would want to see a rotation after every major. One completely new map, like mills, and one reworked previous map. Ancient and anubis have been the best changes in recent memory since you get to see new ideas and executes being attempted. (I like vertigo to play, but it sucks to watch because of the layout). A map like Dust2 being added back means I get to see the same smokes as usual, with rounds almost fully dictated by aim duels

[finnyjam]

I think we should have a 9 map pool, at least for premier. It feels like our options are being stripped away somewhat with CS2. Can't get a real premier rank without being forced to only play the 7 maps in the pool (And even then, everyone picks Mirage anyways), so you can't get a rank if you wanna play something like Office. Kinda the same with the weapon loadout, where you're basically forced to choose meta guns or else risk jeopardizing yourself, so off meta guns like the sawed-off and autosnipers are basically dead (Even in deathmatch, because making the buy menu look like Valorant is obviously what's important).

[Ethiixx]

The main reason Dust 2 was added back to Active Duty is because of the Major hosted in China later this year, D2 is hugely popular there so it will bring in more audience & viewers to have D2 for that Major.

[laggybear]

About overpass :
1 - it was the least played of all maps in cs2 among all players (pros included)
2 - it was becoming the most ct-sided map of the pool (at least at pro thus spectator level).
So I love overpass and I didn't want it to be removed but it made sense. Especially since Valve just overhauled it, thet had to study data to make this choice.

[reacts]

Use this as a fuck inferno button. Can’t wait till that map is out of the active duty pool

[APeXofMarksmen]

they removed overpass, one of the few truly different maps that allow for high level strategies and replaced it with d2, one of the simplest and tactically most boring maps in the game. at the same time they bought the rights to tuscan, another map that could provide something fresh to the pool but havent even ported it over. we now have a map pool where 4/7 maps are basic 3-laners. if they really wanted to bring back d2, the obvious choices to go would have been inferno which has been super bland to watch in recent tournaments imo anyways and is probably the only map with even less strategic depth than d2 (arguably) or mirage which is just outdated at this point. better choices for a new map would have been train, cobble, tuscan or even a completely new map

[ebowlcut]

They’re stupid for removing overpass. It’s easily my favorite counter strike map of all time. A lot of players hate it because of some of the longer lanes, the head glitches, and because awps are filthy on Overpass. But no other map has that holding bathrooms and then falling back to site mid round feeling. Nuke also has a dynamic CT play style that doesn’t fall in line with the usual 2 A, 2 B, 1 Mid CT format and is always so much fun to play.

[Johnce]

It's so funny that the community in my bubble talks about stale map pool, remove Mirage, add more maps to rotation and so on, while the larger community is so up against changes. And it makes me sad. I wish for an operation with interesting community maps, which you can explore and learn to play without sweaty players using the same tactics from match to match. But as some other commenters already said, you have to force this down players throats, or else they will play same fukken Mirage for eternity and be quasi-happy

[maxaffe]

the biggest misconception is that maps need to be balanced. oh i miss old nuke. it also made the game interesting

[dranben]

I low-key kinda like the randomizer. It has the potential to force teams to know more maps. If you're the best team in the world, that should be at the whole game, not just being best at pick/bans

[phinnos]

I would love a map pool of D2, Cache, Train, Nuke, Overpass, Ancient, and Anubis. This is just my personal opinion, and heavily directed by my matchmaking bias.