Debating A “Gospel Adventist” On The Trinity

An Adventist reached out to us to discuss whether or not the Seventh-Day Adventist Church is truly trinitarian or not. We will have a lively, but cordial discussion on the subject and see what the evidence bears out.


CHAPTERS:
00:00 - Introduction & Steven’s Opening Statement
3:33 - What is the Doctrine of the Trinity?
7:44 - What is the Biblical Evidence for the Trinity?
11:47 - What is the Doctrine of the Trinity? (Continued)
16:14 - Does the SDA Church Align with the Nicene Creed
18:36 - Jerry Moon’s Paper: A Quest for the Biblical Trinity
26:54 - Moon’s Response
31:18 - Ellen White’s 1905 Capstone Statement
33:42 - Is This Dishonest?
36:08 - The Elephant in the Room
38:04 - SDA Baptismal Vows
44:26 - The Organization’s Definitions
47:54 - Ellen White and the Holy Spirit
57:06 - How does this comport with the SDA church being trinitarian?
1:00:50 - Please define person and being
1:04:08 - The official SDA position
1:06:20 - What is a person?
1:09:08 - Does God have a physical body?
1:13:28 - Jesus has a higher status
1:16:35 - What Does the SDA Church Teach About the Godhead?
1:19:14 - Ellen White Confirms In Vision
1:23:23 - Jesus Became Michael the Archangel?!
1:28:05 - Jesus’s Nature
1:34:02 - Ontology
1:40:23 - Jesus’s Doubt on the Cross
1:48:00 - The Great Controversy Worldview
1:50:04 - Jesus' Secret Ascension
1:53:50 - Steven's Trinitarianism
1:55:00 - Ellen White's Authority In Adventism
2:01:05 - Steven’s Personal Beliefs
2:02:49 - Theological Division in the SDA Church
2:04:59 - The Heavenly Trio
2:08:30 - Stephen's Closing Thoughts
2:11:53 - Myles Closing Thoughts

#trinity #christiandebate #adventism #seventhdayadventism #answeringadventism

[gospeladventist]

Thank you for having me on Myles. I wish I had a better camera.

[sonjamccart]

I really appreciated Stephen coming on to this channel and being willing to have a detailed discussion with Myles. His views reflect a lot of the confusion I see in the SDA community. Hearing Myles address Stephen's points help me with my own SDA family members. Thank you both!!!

[benjaminparadise]

John 3:17. Christ didn't come to condemn. However, to be Adventist, you have to learn to condemn the Christians who have been worshipping on the day His tomb was empty every week for 2, 000 years, ever since. This is one of the main teachings of adventism, that Sunday worship is the mark of the beast. And it's taught at the schools, the churches, universities, and theology students are trained to teach it.

[benjaminparadise]

The Adventist teaching on the Trinity is not biblical. Ellen White taught that we have everything Christ had at our disposal, and we should strive to have the same perfect character of Christ. This is false, and no human being is called to bear the sins of the world and go 40 days without food. John 1:1...in the beginning was the word, and word was with God and the word was God....and the word became flesh. Christ is part of the Trinity, not just a created being who's behavior we should copy. Claiming we have everything he had would be to say we existed at the beginning. Christ is Immanuel, God with us. No human being can claim that.

[Jessaba]

He said “We believe that we do believe in the trinity. We may not believe it in the same way you would express it”. Steven’s statement right here is the closest to being honest and consistent with SDA organizational theology right here! I don’t mean to seem controversial but he claims to the trinity is the same argument for trans women claiming to be women and compelling others recognize them as women. But I’m sorry but underneath all that make up is twisting of words and definitions. SDAs maybe should identify as trans Trinitarian 🤷‍♀️

[gospeladventist]

I know my camera/mic feed was jumpy making it hard to follow my logic. My essential points were as follows:

1. SDA official view of trinity is consistent with orthodox Christian views.

2. We cannot use EGW or popular writers to prove or disprove official teachings. The Bible alone is our source for doctrine.

3. The Trinity is a mystery and beyond human comprehension. We must be careful not to speculate beyond the clear teaching of the Bible.

4. We are not saved by what we know, but by who we know. There is no 10 page essay on the doctrine of trinity before baptism. The Simple Truth is that God is One and God is Three-Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

5. It is logical that God can be an immaterial spirit and manifest in physical time and space as a material being.

6. Adventists reject Unitarianism and Tri-theism as heresy.

7. The official SDA doctrine is found in Baptismal Vows and fundamental beliefs.

I know Myles thinks we teach a different Trinity based on official creeds and popular statements but I disagree. This may have been the case in the early SDA churches but we have fallen in line with evangelic protestantism on the Trinity.

There is room for disagreement on the Trinity as long as one accepts God as One and Three.

[jonasaras]

The need for SDAs to have “special sauce” on literally EVERY doctrine creates needless error

[umabrijmohun]

It was good that Mr Beagles came onto this show and give his understanding of the Trinity... As an SDA he is very calm however many SDA will disagree with him I hope that ADL will man up and come defend their beliefs only with the Bible instead of making a lot of unintelligent 'noise'

[ricksonora]

For almost 50 years, I’ve heard SDA stories about a tug-of-war between traditional and “evangelical” control. The last I heard, traditionalists were giving the boot to “evangelicals.”

For that reason, I find it difficult to believe that any “evangelical” SDA represents core or mainstream Seventh Day Adventism. If he really believes scriptural teachings, he is, by definition, no longer SDA.

[ChaseDowell]

I hope he comes out of that false church. SDA can't be reformed, it's an all or nothing proposition. I was in a conservative SDA church, as soon as I realized one heresy I was out because it's a house of cards. I don't understand moderate or liberal adventism but I guess that's because I wasn't raised adventist.

[SabbatarianCalvinist]

Christ gained a human nature to perfectly represent man for redemption upon the cross. if Christ does have an angelic nature as well, what was the point of it? Also, if Christ has an angelic nature, does this mean he has THREE natures? Where can you back this up biblically, because the argument of Hebrews is to show the opposite of this.

[YuShudNoe]

Stephen is on his way out of Adventism.

[walterhelm]

I am a retired SDA pastor, and I have always believed in one God in three Persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. I do not believe they are merely three Persons who are one in thought and purpose (tritheism). I believe they are one in substance, as is taught in the Nicene and Athanasian creeds. This is what I truly believe with all my heart and being, and if I perceived the teaching of my church to deviate from this, I would leave. But that is not my perception; in fact, I have always preached and taught the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity in SDA congregations. As for the issue of God having a form, God is Spirit. God does not have a body of flesh and bones like human beings have, and the SDA Church does not teach that. If God had a body of flesh and bones, He could not be incarnated in the womb of Mary because He would already be incarnate. That is theological nonsense that eliminates Jesus' incarnation. I do believe that God has often manifested Himself in a Spirit form that resembles the human form; this is clear from various passages in scripture, and I think this is what Ellen White was also describing. God is very loving, and He condescends to meet us where we are, which is why He often appears in our form. But God cannot be limited or confined to any form, be it a physical form or a Spirit form. That is also clear because God is omnipresent, which would be impossible if God were limited to a form. As for Ellen White, I follow what Dr. Hans LaRondelle used to tell us at the SDA Seminary: "If Ellen White agrees with the Bible, I am happy to go with Ellen White. If Ellen White disagrees with the Bible, I go with the Bible." Ellen White stated that she did not claim infallibility, but she did say more than one hundred times that the Bible should be our only rule of faith, and I take my stand on sola scriptura. Again, if I perceived the official teaching of the SDA Church to differ from this, I would leave. But this is not my perception. I find no conflict in being truly evangelical, not merely in the modern sense of the term, but in the Reformation sense, and being a Seventh-day Adventist.

[pietsanvenero]

There is just one thing I want to put straight know
Sin and transgression of God's law
Is your abriviations what does
1 jn 3 4 mean
Jason 2 9 mean
Rev 18 4
Please write out the book in full
I don't know what does
Jason 2: 9 mean Please this is confusing
Please write the book out in full
Jas 2:9 is it a meaning of what

[lauraalmiron]

When you don’t know something and you still not admitting you don’t know you start doing what he does: to evade the more you can. 😊

[lynelleperschino]

Thanks Myles for laying this out so clearly. My thoughts on the point that gospeladventist keep repeating about “maybe God does have a body, we don’t know” shows pretty clear that their Jesus in not THE Jesus, God from God. God was incarnate in Christ, Christ was the physical manifestation of the Father. There’s no * this god has a body, and oh look! There’s god in another body.

You may be getting into this latter, I’m only at 1:11 minutes in.

[karen]

As a former - I appreciate Stephen coming on to defend adventism ( as he sees it) it is obviously so hard for him to leave because he is steeped in it & seems to have convinced himself that he can reform it - he has admitted that his views are not always in line with adventism ( ie he can see Ellen White is not always in agreement with the bible!) 🙏🏻

[martytitmus]

You have been taught what you think is Trinity but if you have a Jesus who is not God you are not saved.you must be born again!

[lauraalmiron]

We don’t need a seminary degree to understand we only need the word of God and the Holy Spirit that was promised to every single Christian.

[life.after.adventism]

He seems sincere, but sadly he doesn’t understand it isn’t about his personal beliefs. It’s about official teachings. So many SDA’s don’t agree with official teachings. But that wasn’t the topic. The topic was about official teachings. Why did he miss that?