The truth about hydrogen fuel cell cars

The hydrogen fuel cell car. Companies like Toyota, Hyundai, and Honda are all making hydrogen fuel cell cars, but where are they? And with the popularity of cars like the Tesla Model 3, and even more battery electric vehicles on the way, are hydrogen fuel cells even needed anymore?

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▻ Audio file(s) provided by Epidemic Sound

[brenthill]

They're just around the corner.
Been hearing that for 20 years.

[GrasponReality]

The fuel cells Apple is using at it's data centers are not hydrogen fuel cells. They are made by Bloom Energy and are natural gas based fuel cells. They are more efficient than burning natural gas to make electricity but are not carbon free. The advantage they have for data centers is their reliability and they eliminate the need for diesel back up generators. Same for most commercially available hydrogen today... Industrially most hydrogen isn't made via electrolysis but by reforming natural gas into hydrogen and carbon dioxide... Still not a carbon neutral source.


Electrolysis is inherently inefficient because of the minimum voltage necessary to break the hydrogen-oxygen bonds. It only becomes economically viable using renewables when you have a huge peak over supply of electricity. You will get more energy converted to useful work by using the electricity to charge batteries than you will making hydrogen.



Another huge real world problem with hydrogen is the machining tolerances necessary in hydrogen systems. Hydrogen molecules are really small and require really tight fittings and connections so it won't just leak away. Given the beating most vehicles take hydrogen leaks could be a real issue.. Probably not a safety issue because the hydrogen will rise and dissipate quickly. But it would suck to fill your car at night only to find it leak out over night because of a connection that's worked loose from road vibrations. For reference a hydrogen pressure regulator is about 4 times as expensive as an oxygen one..

[timothyhannon]

I have a Toyota Mirai, and I cannot wait for the lease to end in 5 months.  First, the limited number of fueling stations is very frustrating. I cannot drive from San Jose to Santa Barbara in winter without a detour to Harris Ranch in the valley.  Very unsatisfactory.  Secondly, there has been an explosion at Air Products in Santa Clara, which produces the hydrogen.  Supplies have been very limited the last few months.  Free fuel is worthless if there is no fuel.  The emergency road service is terrible.  I tried it once and had to walk home.  
 
But the biggest killer is the radiator.  Yes, there is a radiator on the front to cool the fuel cell. There is no protection against stones or other debris.  Mine took a hole from gravel or other refuse.  The cost of repair was $4, 000!  Fortunately, my insurance paid for all of this except the deductible. This is clearly a design defect. An anti-ballistic screen would prevent this problem.  Instead, Toyota refuses to make any changes and lets the consumer take the risk.  
 
These are great cars to drive, but the negatives clearly outweigh the positives.  As a Mirai leaseholder, I cannot recommend this car given my negative experiences.

[doshiempiresandpuzzles]

I like the variety in content you’re producing. Thanks Matt

[tthinker]

I like electric because I plan to install solar w/ enough capacity to run the home and fuel the car. Zero cents/mile (if excluding the initial investment). Long term, it's a total win.

[simplethings]

As I have said before (though I can't remember if I've said it on this channel) it is as stupid to try and refuel electric cars between point A and B as it would have been to try and build a model T that could graze on a pasture. Electric cars need to be fueled where we live, eat, work or shop.

[stevefink]

Until hydrogen is produced using solar, wind, hydro or whatever, a hydrogen vehicle is still needs hydrocarbons (oil, gas, coal) to be powered. You don't get something from nothing. Best to just store that energy in batteries instead of pressure vessels and the maze of infrastructure required to contain and transport the stuff

[BranDo]

Those busses from Belgium are still Dutch, only the factory is in Belgium. They produce automated vehicles too. Great vid!

[PatrickGoodspeed]

I'll stick with Mr. Fusion, gives me that 1.1 jigawatts to get were I'm going.

[keco]

Fuel cell vehicles just aren’t economical. They cost more upfront and their inefficiency which also results in higher costs both make it a hard sell even for many commercial uses. Especially now that electric charging speeds are so high.

[rasmusbonn]

In the winter hydrogen cars beat the crap out of evs.

[gn]

I am an Electrical Engineer who has studied fuel cells since the Apollo missions. Honda is very active in not only fuel cell research, but manufacturing cars as well. When they announced the new Clarity fuel cell car, I was quick to lease one. I have been driving cars for 70 years and this Clarity is by far the best auto that I have driven. I'm fortunate to live in Southern California so fuel is readily available, however, the hydrogen infrastructure is currently limited. What is interesting is the efforts to provide hydrogen safely going on behind the scenes, in spite of very limited government support. All major manufacturers are designing/building cars worldwide because they see the long term advantages, and are also developing infrastructure world wide.
A very serious concern is the progressive drive to eliminate economical power generation in the name of "save the planet". They also want cars to be all electric by 2035. If you do the math (which I have), to provide power for cars at that level would require doubling our total power generation capability. To say that is a pipe dream is an understatement in the current political environment . I am convinced that hydrogen is the most likely solution to our long term energy needs, but will require total government and media support. Not going to happen soon!
BTW, Honda offers some perqs to help. If you need to make a trip within California, a rental car is provided free as long as the trip begins and ends in CA. Also, fuel is proved free for the entire 3 yr lease.

[hyric]

The part about fuel cells being better suited for trucks, ships, trains and aircraft is where the emphasis needs to be.

[ronknox]

I live in an apartment along with 199 other units. I have underground parking but there are 0 electrical outlets in the parking area. Plug-in electric is not possible unless you plan to sit for 20 to 26 minutes at a charging station before or after work. Also, I live in Canada where the range of the battery is very much affected by the temperature which has a wide range. Also I drive electric vehicles along with hybrid and gasoline for a manufacturer. The range on the electric car changes dramatically again with the use of accessories like AC. I could gain 25 to 30 kilometers by lowering the AC to very low or off.
I cannot buy electric where I live in an apartment which accounts for the majority of the population in most countries. While there may be improvements over time it will be many, many years before plug-in EV are practical and affordable to the masses.
Hydrogen makes more sense but for now, hybrid is the best and cheapest option for most.

[jhindson]

Good as far as it goes but here what the hydrogen industry does not talk about:
- A hydrogen dispenser (as shown at a gas station) can only refuel 26 vehicles per day with a daily delivery of 130 kg of hydrogen
- put another way a typical gas station can refuel 600 vehicles per day but to fuel the same number of hydrogen vehicles would require 26 hydrogen truck deliveries per day to the station. There would not be enough room for the above ground tanks anyway
- Only 2 or 3 hydrogen cars can be fueled in succession without a 10-15 minute pause while the tanks restore tank pressure and rechill the hydrogen (hydrogen heats when it expands into a car tank- one of three gases that heats when expanded)
- Hydrogen buses have been tried before and failed due to high operating and maintenance costs. (Canada $90 million write off in 2014 of 20 buses and more recently hydrogen buses returned in Germany)
- The only current clean form of hydrogen (from electrolysis) costs $23/kg or twice the going price of gray hydrogen (67% from methane) in California
- Hydrogen for short and medium trucks is out as it cannot compete with batteries.
- Hydrogen for long distance trucking is also out as any power-train breakdown requires towing to a highly specialized maintenance facility. This is the same reason CNG trucks are not in widespread use - only with hydrogen the costs are much higher. Long distance trucking is all about cost per ton and on-time deliveries.
- Another reason long distance trucking is out is that it cannot support the infrastructure cost nor the doubling of fuel costs.


Bottom line: Hydrogen is DOA for roadway transportation and it is just a matter of how much taxpayer money will be wasted on infrastructure and fuel subsidies before it is abandoned.

[blijoh]

Not to mention the infrastructure for BEV is there already, production lines, power is already flowing through the grid wich can be used.
Fuel cells have none of those benefits, but we need to solve how to produce and store energy when production is high.

[greenboi]

He's quite right. Battery-electric propulsion's place lies in lighter sectors of transportation (cars, bikes), while hydrogen fuel's place lies in heavier sectors (trucks, ships), in the same way diesel is used in heavier transportation, while natural gas is used in lighter transportation.

[cleric]

Why is hydrogen not used for just energy storage? it seem like it could be used to store exess production from irregular sources like wind and solar.

[GH-oijf]

They are in use today in some buses in Alameda County, California as a demonstration project. The buses work as well as any other. The U.S. Army is experimenting with them using the Chevy Colorado ZH2. The mistake people make is thinking only in terms of personal vehicles for the general public rather than about where they might have application.

[SteveSwanson]

Thanks for answering an open question.. also appreciate comments of others.
My biggest battery concern today is their reliance on heavy metals and mining - not an earth friendly solutions over the long haul. This said, way better than living off dead dinosaurs and prehistoric ferns.