Is God like a great pizza? The ontological argument explained | with @FreethinkingMinistries

What is the ontological argument? In this video, theologian, apologist, and CrossExamined Apologetic Team (CAT) member Tim Stratton lays out several reasons why he thinks it's one of the most effective of all the arguments for the existence of God. Get ready to take some notes!

📚 𝗥𝗲𝗰𝗼𝗺𝗺𝗲𝗻𝗱𝗲𝗱 𝗿𝗲𝘀𝗼𝘂𝗿𝗰𝗲𝘀

🤝 𝗦𝗨𝗣𝗣𝗢𝗥𝗧 𝗖𝗥𝗢𝗦𝗦𝗘𝗫𝗔𝗠𝗜𝗡𝗘𝗗 (𝗧𝗔𝗫-𝗗𝗘𝗗𝗨𝗖𝗧𝗜𝗕𝗟𝗘) 🤝

👥 𝗦𝗢𝗖𝗜𝗔𝗟 𝗠𝗘𝗗𝗜𝗔 👥

🗄️ 𝗥𝗘𝗦𝗢𝗨𝗥𝗖𝗘𝗦 🗄️

🎙️ 𝗦𝗨𝗕𝗦𝗖𝗥𝗜𝗕𝗘 𝗧𝗢 𝗢𝗨𝗥 𝗣𝗢𝗗𝗖𝗔𝗦𝗧 🎙️

#OntologicalArgument #timstratton #DoesGodExist

[festushaggen]

I prefer the other side of the same argument. The impossibility that matter created itself, that a random bang/expansion of matter and energy from an unknown origin set off an extremely fortunate series of events that designed and created all life, or that the universe created itself out of nothing. I don't believe there's any plausible possibility for creation without God and there is nothing that proves there was.

[JamesRichardWiley]

The ontological argument is an argument.
At no time does any god make an appearance to support the argument.
All you have is an argument.

[germanwulf]

I'm a hardcore Christian, and I have to say... this particular argument isn't that great. It seems like a directed logic. By that, I mean that you have a conclusion you wish you reach, and you found a way to direct your argument toward that conclusion. Also, I dunno what Dawkins is doing using the word "probably", because while most atheists verbally admit to the possibility of being wrong, in their hearts they've already concluded that they are not.

[Kahless_the_Unforgettable]

Sorry, what? I believe in God. I think there is clear proof that He exists, and I don't understand people who can't see it.

But this argument is..., odd. Wouldn't an Atheist just reject step one? And if they accept step one, why do they have to accept step two? Or three? I see no reason to accept any of these theories as true.

How does it follow? The possibility that something exists does not mean that the possible thing exists. That is incoherent and absurd.

Again, sorry, but I think William Lane Craig was right on this one. He's almost never right. But he's got a point, and you've got..., I don't know what you've got. Confusion?

[Blessed_Sound]

Me: *shakes head and clicks on the video*

[CaptainFantastic]

Another really poor argument.

Apologetics always confuses me. It tries so hard to provide a rational for a faith based belief system.

Are these people just really insecure in their faith?

[YutubeBansALot]

God is nowhere near pizza, a pedo symbol nowadays…GOD IS ALMIGHTY UNIQUE AND INCOMPARABLE, just a few adjectives

[mustachemac]

This is such a weak argument and has been debunked so many times.

This doesn't prove that any God exist, all it does is bring forth the concept.

[hasone]

If Christians could demonstrate god to be real, then they wouldn't need all these bad arguments. Oh wait if God was real then they would be out of a job.

[deldomino]

I will preface this by saying that i am a Christian, so I'm not trying to argue that you're wrong. But i would like you to please explain why it logically follows that "if God exists in some" then "God exists in all." Is there a premise I'm missing?

[dragonwhisperer]

This is either, 1, badly explained, or, 2, badly reasoned. What is a 'possible world'? If God can exist in some 'possible worlds', how does that make Him exist in all 'possible worlds'? I don't follow the logic, and I think this argument does a disservice to apologists, especially when they don't explain it well. I already believe in God but this argument makes me not want to, if we're looking at it from the atheist perspective

[jonathanwick]

Then people say: "well alright, this pizza is special tho. It cant be eaten."

What they're doing is simply robbing the pizza of its attributes that make it a pizza. What they're describing is simply just God.

[cisuminocisumino]

I think we can do better...this is just, no. What exactly are these "possible worlds." honestly speaking, this argument is quite absurd.

[roderictaylor]

Strange, I thought I posted before, but I can’t find my post now. Apologies if this is a duplicate post.

Plantinga’s modal ontological argument is only valid within the axiom system S5. Using S5 presupposes we are working with possibility as metaphysical possibility, not epistemic possibility. Just because something cannot be proven or demonstrated to be impossible does not mean that it is metaphysically possible. When you ask, “Or is there some illogical and incoherent notion about a being who exists necessarily. . ., ” you are appealing to a notion of epistemic possibility, which is irrelevant to supporting the main premise of the MOA. Even if we could somehow demonstrate there is nothing illogical or incoherent in the notion of a MGB, at best we might conclude it is epistemically possible a MGB exists. This would not be sufficient to support the main premise of the MOA, that it is metaphysically possible a MGB exists.

[akoskormendi]

Premise 3 is not how logic works. It's a complete nonsequitor. It's like saying if I am a student in one school, I am a student in all schools. The ontological argument has always been one of the most ridiculous arguments for God, it is literally defining God into existance. You can't define things into existance.

[incredulouspasta]

1. Premise 4 is the unsupported premise. Essentially, premise 4 says "it is possible for a being to exist who's possibility of existence entails it's existence". There's no way to show that this is true. Defining God as "maximally great" is just a way to sneakily attach this property to God without people noticing. All the other "great-making properties" are completely irrelevant to the argument.

This argument is incredibly confusing, so I can understand why many people would be taken in by it. However... doesn't the God in question want to have a personal relationship with people, and hasn't he directly revealed himself to people in the past? Why is such an obtuse, confusing argument necessary at all??? And why is it one of Tim's favorites? Seems incredibly strange.

[mlauntube]

I know that God exists, but your logic fails: it is a non sequitur; it does not follow.
"If it is possible that God exists, then God exists in some possible worlds."
I think you are begging the question that there are an infinite amount of universes but you are not stating it.
If this is the case, than your statement could be changed into a complex question fallacy "Does God exists in one of the infinite universes?" To correct that fallacious complex question, you would ask the two questions this way:
Are there an infinite amount of universes?
If so, Does God exist in any of them?
I can tell you that the only evidence I have seen presented for any parallel universe (let alone an infinite amount of them) are the epiphanies that come with psychedelic drug usage.
Someone I know told me a story about a time they thought they had understood some great truth that would explain the meaning of life, the universe, and everything while under the influence of one of these drugs, and fearing they would not remember it when they come out of this altered stated of consciousness, they wrote it down on a piece of paper. The following day they read the note that said:
"Quack, quack, duck, duck. The elephant blows the elephant's nose".
That is what I think about the multi-verse theory.

[SpielbergMichael]

In case anyone finds this helpful or is interested in praying for our Christian like FreeThinkingMinistries and Tim Stratton

16 prayer points you can pray for them:

1
You can pray that they will always have a good walk with God (that they will not forget their first love), that God will bless their daily private Bible reading and prayer life, and that they will have good sound doctrine.

2
You can pray that they will be full of the Holy Spirit and that God will bless their ministries so that many more people will come to faith in Jesus for God’s glory, and that they will feed God’s sheep and disciple them properly.

3
You can pray that they will be humble, that they will remember how many Christian leaders in the past have fallen, and that they will have a very healthy fear of the Lord.

4
You can pray that God will protect them and the ministry God has given them from:
Pride
Love of fame
Love of money
Desire for the approval of people rather than the approval of God
Being worried about offending people
Compromising God’s Word
Sexual temptation
Demonic attacks
Persecution (from outside the Church and inside the Church)

5
You can pray for their PHYSICAL HEALTH and that God will heal all their health problems.

6
You can pray for their MENTAL HEALTH. Pastors and Christian workers often have stress and battle discouragement and depression. Please God touch them and heal them of all mental and emotional problems and distress.
They can also sometimes be hurt by the people they serve or by other Christian leaders - so we can pray that this won’t happen but that if it does that God will heal these wounds and strengthen His servants to forgive each other and that God will restore unity for His Glory.

7
You can pray that God will bless and protect their families.
Satan often attacks Christian workers by attacking their loved ones.
So you can pray that their family members will all have a good walk with God, have good sound doctrine, that God will protect them all from demonic attacks, that God will also bless and protect their physical and mental health, heal them of all infirmities, and that God will bless all their family relationships so that there is peace and love in their families.
You can pray that God especially blesses and protects all areas and parts of their marriages, so that they will not be tempted to look elsewhere.
Also please God bless their marriages especially so that they can be a model and example for other Christians.

8
You can pray that God will abundantly bless and protect the finances of the ministries and also the personal finances of God’s servants (especially finances needed for health or medical expenses).
You can pray that they always have abundant finances so that they can always do every good work God wants them to do.

9
You can pray that God blesses and protects the relationships between Christian co-workers in ministries - so that no jealousy or strife or bitterness takes root. That they will all have Christian unity and that their focus will be on God getting all the glory and rejoice in any and all work for God.

10
You can pray that God prevents any technical or logistical or legal or any type of problems for their ministry, but if they have any such issues/problems that God will help them resolve/fix and totally solve and remove these problems.

11
If it’s an internet (e.g. YouTube) ministry you can pray that God will help the videos spread on those platforms and get many views and that God will use the videos to bring many people to repentance and faith in Jesus.

12
You can pray that God will help Christian leaders be good shepherds of Jesus’ sheep and continue to feed Jesus’ sheep, and that they will not only convert people, but also disciple new converts so that they can grow and develop and mature in a healthy and supported way.

13
You can pray that God will give them the heart of a servant.

14
You can pray that God gives them wisdom and helps them and powerfully guides them when making all decisions and plans.

15
You can pray that if they make mistakes or sin that God will grant them humility and repentance and restore them.

16
You can pray that more Christians will pray consistently for Christian


You could make a list of pastors/ministries you want to support and pray for them regularly.

Jesus said:

“ when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will REWARD you.”
Matthew 6:6

[cafeeineaddicted]

The problem with this cutesy attempt at an apologetic is that it conflates different uses of the term "possible" : One: that there is a non-zero possibility that a god exists, which is what the argument requires and Two: the informal use of "possible" meaning "I don't yet know that it is impossible".
For example. Is it possible that a Japanese person named Angus is playing Smoke on the Water on bagpipes right now? By the first sense we would have to say "we don't know if it is possible" because we do have all the necessary information. By the second sense we would have to say "yes" as we can not rule it out without extensive knowledge.

The Dawkins campaign statement is using probable in that second, epistemic probability sense, and therefore the whole argument crashes and burns.

These are not new rebuttals guys.

As for Dr. Craig's response, I think he presents a naive and surface-level understanding of the maximally great pizza. It deserves no response until he bones up on his pizza theory.

[johnford]

First, the fact that grown men can be this silly is amazing.
Just because something can't be proven to be impossible doesn't automatically mean it exists. That's a ridiculous notion
All this is is Special pleading