Why Are the Reformed Afraid of Lutheranism?

In this video, Rev. Matthew Fenn and Jordan B. Cooper discuss the reason why some in the Reformed world react so strongly against Lutheranism.

[johnhudelson]

My father, a retired Presbyterian pastor, encouraged me to join an LCMS congregation. He attended a Christian Reformed church, and found their view of the sacraments too Zwinglian. He told me that Presbyterianism and Dutch Reformed such as Christian Reformed are two different things. Later on he was leaning to becoming Lutheran but but by that time he was extremely old in an assisted living facility so he could not attend church.

[Solideogloria]

Ex evangelical, then Calvinist. Most evangelicals don’t know there is a Lutheran option. If they knew there would be more people becoming Lutheran.

[chemnitzfan]

My issue with White is that he says he doesn't want to engage with Lutherans, and he has even admitted to being ignorant about Lutheran beliefs, but that hasn't stopped him from spewing nonsense about us.

[fanman]

I used to enjoy these discussions but I now find them somewhat frustrating. While we argue about doctrinal differences the United States is increasingly turning pagan. Why don’t we argue about what Jesus said? Things like, “Why do you call me Lord then ignore what I say, ” or “If you love me, obey my commands, ” or “Make disciples and teach them to obey my commands.” If you agree with those statements and are willing to teach them as the highest of Christian principles then I’m with you regardless of your denomination.

[shelbymoon]

I am a PCA pastor and love my Lutheran brothers. What we share far outweighs our differences. Let us dialogue in sincere love for Christ and each other. The Lord be with you.

[dallasbrat]

I am essentially a Baptist looking for a conservative Lutheran Church in north Dallas . So we are not afraid of other Protestants

[ThePostmillennial]

Baptismal regeneration could be one of the sticking points.

[voyager]

I completely agree with this assessment. While I would not say the Reformed are "afraid" of us, there are areas where I think they perceive us perhaps "inferior" to them theologically and perhaps keep a distance as a result? I suspect as both mentioned here, that they regard Lutheran sacramentalism (without perhaps a true understanding) as too "Roman" (though it is opposed to Rome's ex opere operato position about as far as one could be) and our lack of primary emphasis on the doctrine of election as the basis for why. We regard election as we do any other revealed doctrine, vital yet intrinsically subordinate through the lens of Law and Gospel to that of the empty cross and victorious Savior. Whatever believed to be taken from scripture that does _not_ point us to the glory of God in Christ, must be _mis_ taken from scripture.

[PintsWithLuther]

Do you have the link 🔗 to the video you are referencing?

[christophertaylor]

we're not. Some of my favorite theologians are Lutheran. Rod Rosenbladt, Gene Edward Veith, etc

[chanceotter]

In my experience in the Reformed world, primarily consisting of refugees from fundamentalist, charismatic and dispensationalist backgrounds, Lutheranism was not on their radar. In the Sproul, Piper, MacArthur media scrum that brought them to Reformed theology Baptist and Presbyterian were the only options. As for the pastors I have talked to there seems to be a lack of curiosity about Lutheran distinctions, or for the more Puritan influenced, I have found hostility about Lutheran sacramental theology and their considering the normative principle of worship idolatry.
If Rod Rosenblatt wasn’t given a voice on the original White Horse Inn I would have never heard a Lutheran POV in the evangelical culture of the early 2000s.

[paulmcwhorter]

This is the confusing thing to the casual observer. Many people fear Lutheranism not because of the subtleties of the classic Lutheran doctrines, but because it has at least to the casual observer become associated with churches that dont believe the Bible. A person just driving around town will see a St. Whatever Lutheran Church with a big sign outside saying Join Us this Weekend for Liturgical Clowning, Drag Queen Parade, Bring your Cat to Church day, or many other outrageous things. Denominations such as Lutheran, Presbyterian, Anglican have a brand problem, as they have become synonymous with institutions which do not hold to biblical inerrancy. If we agree on the concept of Biblical inerrancy, then we can have all types of interesting discussions on what the Bible says and what it means, but the real dividing issue is the question, do you believe all scripture is inspired by God, perfect, timeless, and preserved. The perception that 'Lutherans' project is that they do not uphold those things. I am sure it is more nuanced than that, but if all you knew about Lutherans is what is projected on the signs in front of the churches as you drive around town, yes you would fear Lutheranism.

[Damon-pu]

I think most people would rather spend an evening with Luther than with Calvin.

[anorman]

I would describe myself as 1689er, and I'd say that I agree with James White on 99% of what he says (I don't always like the way he says it, admittedly, because I think he can often be insulting in the way that he addresses other people), and he's been an enormous and I would say positive influence on me.

I give that context to say that I very much appreciate Dr. Cooper for not simply ridiculing those in my camp. And that includes this video, which I think handled differences in a civil way that seems increasingly rare these days.

I get very frustrated with online discussion, especially among a very loud subset of Presbyterians that seem to think that Baptists are beneath contempt. I've learned to simply avoid those people.

In contrast, it's refreshing to hear honest and friendly discussion even over disagreement. As a result, I've definitely learned quite a bit about Lutheranism recently.

I'm less familiar with Rev. Fenn, but I might be hearing more from him since I just subscribed.

So, thanks, Dr. Cooper, if you're reading this.

[jgeph.]

Bottom line most reformed don’t understand Lutheranism. I’ve brought this up multiple times in our Sunday school class when Luther would be mentioned . Most reformed see us essentially the same with some differences while from what I see from the confessional Lutherans is they believe what they teach enough to have closed communion . Say what you will I respect them for that .

[oracleoftroy]

I think there are a couple of things being missed.

1. This is Lutheran ministers talking about the view the general Reformed laity have; there is going to be major disconnect compaired to going to the high sacramentalism taught in our confessions.

I've seen the same thing in reverse, where I was comparing the Westminster Confession to Luther's Large Catechism and highlighting that both teach there isn't power in the mere water, as if getting wet in a ceremony is what is causing regeneration in Lutheranism; the very point made in this video. Yet every reply from a Lutheran claimed I was wrong and didn't understand their position, regardless of Luther's own words supporting my claims.

Lay people generally don't understand the official teachings of their church in full. In the Reformed world, we do have a lot of influence by baptists, and the average lay person won't know how to distinguish Baptist view of the ordinances and Presbyterian sacramentalism. For both of us, people come in from many different backgrounds, and often drag their previous views into their current church, not properly distinguishing between their private understanding and the teaching of the denomination.

2. I think Cooper would be suprised if he looked more closely at Doug's Position on the sacraments. He's even stated (and I agree with him) thst WCF takes a baptismal regeneration view. It makes the same delineations as Luther does to carefully apply that sacramentally where faith and the Word connect in sacramental union, not from the mere water ceremony.

3. I think the single biggest hurdle is purely one of preferred terminology, and not some major difference in our views. In speaking of regeneration, Lutherans have a habit of speaking in terms of the sign, e.g. baptism, and Reformed the thing signified, e.g. regeneration. The thing is, WCF is fine with either, per 27.2. But insofar as we culturally have such a habit, we tent to talk past each other if we are not aware of, or not willing to account for, each others preferred terminology. It's easy for a Reformed guy to hear 'Baptism saves' and think, "they are saying we get saved by getting wet!" Its easy for a Lutheran to here us speak of the sacraments almost exclusively as the ordinances and think we have a low sacramentalism. Neither are true.

4. Lutherans for some reason seem obsessed with not being Reformed. I notice a trend to maximize the distance between us even when we are in agreement or have minor differences. The Reformed tend to not know very much about Lutherans generally, and think the difference is smaller than it really is, having both come out of the Reformation largely fighting the same major issues. And so I think there is a bit of that going on here, Reformed have a low view of the sacraments because you need them to, not because you are diving into our confessions and demonstrating it. Again, I think you'd be surprised at what we confess and claim the sacraments are doing when you look beyond the laity and read the historic confessions and what our ministers really say about them.

[cabellero]

The thing about " reformed theology" is it's never sufficient, never adequate for the reformers!

Reform and then Reform the reforms and THEN Reform the reformed

Evangelicals look upon Lutherans as not being reformed

Lutheran Was The early church reform!

[blackukulele]

Luther's _Bondage of the Will_ is a great book, but Karlstadt's criticism of Luther's stalled reformation is worth considering, see, perhaps, Ronald J. Sider (Ed.) _Karlstadt's battle with Luther_ (1978).

[ThinkingBiblically]

Before I listen I'll chime in from the perspective of one raised as a Lutheran, now a born again Christian, who a few years ago explored Reform theology: Luther made a very clear distinction between Law and Grace, Reformed theology believe the Law is Grace. The Luther was right on that.

[cranmer]

Good works cannot merit justification. But are good works irrelevant? No. Good works are a fruit of sanctification.