Jewish Debate: God vs. Law

Which is sovereign, God or God’s Law? What do miracles prove? And how can divine intervention be a factor in the governance of political communities? In this livestream, we consider a strange, fascinating story from Jewish sources that raises these and related questions. The best way to participate (during or after) is to engage with the issues thoughtfully.

MICHAEL'S NEWSLETTER

FREE GUIDE TO GREAT THINKERS

RELATED COURSES
You’ll find several courses on Law at my school:

FOLLOW ONLINE

ABOUT ME

[thekirkwoodcenter]

Michael, love the channel. One thing about Christian theology though that might be missing in your analysis, and this can be found right in the New Testament. The Law is not replaced by Christ, as if the Law was bad and Christ abrogates or invalidates the Law. Instead, it is better to see Christ as the fulfillment of the Law, which, as Paul points out "is good." (Romans 7). The idea that the Law (here, the Mosaic Law) was invalid, as well as the "Jewish God" who gave it, is part and parcel of the earliest Christian heresy, namely, of Marcionism. But Marcionism was rejected by the orthodox Church Fathers in his own day, most thoroughly by Irenaeus of Lyon in his 5-volume "Against Heresies." Moreover, Paul is clear that what accepting Christ as Lord and Messiah allows us to do is to be transformed in such a way that the Law no longer condemns us (because we are incapable of fulfilling it), but that the Law becomes fulfillable by us in that our desires, and our very being, are transformed by Christ so as to make the Law not "a law" above us, but literally a part of us. This actually fulfills the prophecy of Ezekiel 36:24-29 where God promises to change Israel's heart of stone, put His Spirit into the heart of man, and make the Law no longer cumbersome to us, but, again, make it part of our nature. What was once a divine command to a sinful and corrupt human being, is now grafted into the very ontology of the being of man. This solves the tension between voluntarism (legal positivism) and nature (physis); of will and being. As such, Jesus can say about those who will receive the Spirit, that those who perform the Law will, in the end, not even realize that they were performing it because it is in them and not external to them, cf. Matt 25:37 ff. They will act out the Law naturally, because there is no more distinction between will and being.

[danielstout]

Dr millerman, thank you so much for this discussion. I’m reading “the beginnings of politics” right now, the Halbertal book you mention about Kings Saul and David. The AI discussion too is relevant, I think, and brought to mind the classic Phillip K Dick novel and Spielberg movie “Minority Report.” Enjoyed this.

[JancsiBacsi-nqzt]

This is why it was so imprtant for Jesus to be a *fulfillment* of the Law. He had to root his message in the existing literature and extend it, rather than relying (only) on miracles as proof. Very good story. Thank you

[dorianwalker]

I’m reminded of St Faustina Kowalska’s diary in which she (a famously uneducated Polish nun and mystic who died in her 20’s) says that Jesus tells her that he gives sanction to the priest in confession to counsel her according to his prudence. So even in her mystical experiences, in which she received a mandate from Jesus to found a new religious order, she is ordered to obey ecclesiastical authorities even as they deny her permission to carry out Jesus’ mandate.

She attributes this ultimately to God’s mercy, which accommodates His justice to human freedom as it is exercised by the visible authorities that receive His sanction.

I think the profundity of her insights are themselves a stunning evidence for the truth of the Catholic faith. Thank you for sharing this piece of Talmudic wisdom with us Michael 🙏🏻

[nvitski]

To my mind using the law mechanistically up to a point of rejecting the divine wisdom behind the law, the soul of the law, is far closer to using a "truth machine" than accepting revelation. Miracle can't be a truth machine, as miracle isn't an everpresent mechanistic utility that you can demand answers of as you please. I mean, it's hard to not notice that miracles don't happen very often.
And the logic of the story is indeed exactly the same as the one j-s used to reject Christ. You may disagree with Christians pointing that out, but to dismiss them without an argument and call them stupid is... Unimpressive to say the least.

[jacobc]

What's weird here is that while Exodus 23:2 has a lot of different translations, they all basically say you should NOT follow the majority into doing something wicked. That you should NOT give way to the majority if it means going against the truth. Which completely contradicts the argument being made by the rabbi who is holding the majority opinion against God (who is Truth, so obviously the majority is objectively wrong).

[JTizzard]

This reminds me of the Inquisition chapter in the brothers Karamazov. The intervention of God can only derail the implementation of God's law. The institution created to be a bridge to the divine, becomes a gate locked shut for the good of the flock. For if they could comprehend God just a little they would be destroyed.

[marcgrant]

it’s like the story of benjamin franklin saying to the crowd at the constitutional convention …we have made a republic if you can keep it.

[kittenlang]

I must admit, this is a concept of a higher power/Almighty/One above All that I can't imagine. To me, it's insanity and supreme human arrogance. Beyond pride or hubris of the Greeks.

My opinion, and I'm perfectly open to what others would be kind enough to share with me. 🕊️

[philcava]

If god is perfect and all knowing how can a person act freely. The story reminded me of argument for freedom of the will that went along the lines: If god is as suggested then he can't change anything he has done, and he has done it all. It would amount to a contradiction. If so, then we can freely do what ever we want, with no interventions.

[tetilatus]

That Dostojevski parable mentioned in another comment was my first thought also, along with the quote of some german that goes something like "he who knows how laws and sausages are made, do not sleep well at night". I think the same goes for he who knows how art is made. But on the other hand, the the rabbis are undoubtably great artists. I can see their point though, offcourse, but wether one agrees with it is I guess from a Nietzschean perspective a matter of taste, based on ones constitution. I'm sure there are other perspectives.

[Breeze]

This debate made me think of Jack London's Iron Heel. There's a debate between two characters I cant quite recall but I remember this notion of holding the interlocutor to their initial position. Reminds me of this notion of the divine law, and it's interpretation. I could be skitz

[chhhhhris]

Textualism, the authority of the sacred texts-law preserving continuity with reality through interpreting the text-law, imposing the text-law on reality _vs_ its negation: _the authority of reality_ contradicting or imposing itself on or against sacred texts-laws _vs_ reality as a reflection or emanation of the sacred texts-laws already there. Also a text-law which is necessary in the sense of universal-recurring, versus particularly necessary to a historical situation.

[johnshaplin]

How was the ritual purity of the oven called into question in the first place? Was God like the framers of the constitution who avoided ruling clearly on some issues, left them to be decided at a future time or by some other legal mechanism or is the simple fact that even the most learned and pious of Rabbis and scholars cannot apprehend the full brilliance and majesty of God and his laws? They strain to see through darkened glass? Are we not confined, as Luther said, to apprehend God and His Laws as a matter of faith rather than knowledge or logical proofs, forsaken wretches that we are? 35:43

[BarbarraBay]

does this Jewish law only apply within the Jewish community? for example, in Deuteronomy 5, the Ten Commandments are given but merely in Deuteronomy 7 the order is given to genocide the tribes of Canaan to steal their land

[SWTORDREKKIN]

If God is all knowing, and if God gave the law, then his authority would supercede the law he gave. However, I don't think this scenario is possible in the first place, not without stripping God of his omniscience. The law could not possibly explain every scenario; to do so would be an endless volume if books. Of course, my argument presupposes that God is all knowing. If God is not, and is merely a higher being, and flawed, then all bets are off. The other thing to consider is that a majority does not make Truth. The Truth isnt up to a vote of opinion, what is true is true regardless.

[saimbhat]

I am hoping we will soon have some talmud sessions?

[notloki]

now apply this rhetoric to the story of moses with the egyptians. hey man, majority rules.

[barb]

Jesus is the Way. The Truth and the Life.

[thescythian]

The Story is a puzzle told by allegory. Which is the ultimate truth and guide to righteousness, Law (Words) or the Divine (that which needs no words but is) - the Light? Words are the realm of Man and are by that nature, corruptible. Can we be guided ultimately by the words of men (Laws) or by our gift of conscience (The Divine?) "God" in the story is our gift of Conscience, unless that gift is repressed, it functions to guide us toward the righteous path. Law in the story is the imperfect ideas of men who are corruptible and will set down their Laws for advantage and power. The story is still playing itself out among that tribe who are still arguing as to what is to be lived by; that which is written or by their conscience. Just as in the story, the majority justifies their agenda by quoting scriptures they deem "Law" but the minority wails and even disowns what scripture "promises" them as their just reward. It is not their reward they have taken, it is their punishment. They, by their greed and avarice have brought Hell to Earth and now they, like their Sampson of old, will bring down the Temple and destroy both the corrupt and the righteous. And guess what? The World will keep turning and soon forget and "God" smirks (in a godly manner) and says with irony; "My children have triumphed over me."