Is Paul Atreides a Villain?

[BlameThande]

My favourite line in "Dune" is actually in the appendixes, where it talks about how Liet-Kynes was patiently preparing the Fremen for the long project of terraforming, "until the day his planet was afflicted by a Hero."

[Raggmopp-xlyf]

I've always maintained that Paul was neither hero or villain - he was a survivor. NONE of anything that happened would have happened if they'd just been left alone. The Emperor would have continued to fret, but he would have remained emperor. He could have even married his daughter off to Duke Leto (or Paul) and the "threat" would have been neutralized. Instead? He had to deal with a vengeful teenager who was mightily pissed his dad was murdered and had decided to "Tear it ALL Down!"

[Safetysealed]

He was, to quote V, "Cast vicariously as both victim and villain by the vicissitudes of fate."

[acecondor]

I find the best way to think of Dune is its what LotR would be like if Aragorn took the Ring fir himself to overthrow Sauron.

[AncientRights]

I think it is fair to call both of them a villain: Paul unwillingly and Leto II willingly. "History is written by the victors." Paul was unable and unwilling to guide humanity on the golden path so while his Jihad was successful he was not able to claim ultimate victory, letting the ruin left in his wake be left to others to deal with. Leto II firmly wanted humanity to emerge victorious and so he set himself against them, he became an anvil against which humanity would be forged. As outside readers we might be able to see his acts as heroic, but the winning side, the humanity Leto II wanted to flourish, could only consider him a villain.

[zeroreyortsed]

Dune is basically a greek tragedy, as far as the Atreides go. They realize they have to become the villains by everyone else's standards. In order to keep humanity from being destroyed.

[mickyodell]

As the Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam once said, “There are no sides”

[robspadre]

I didn’t understand Dune until I started watching this channel - best video essays on YouTube, hands down.

[frthlvfchrt]

The problem is that when somone can *actually* see the future, and the least worst option is to create the lake of blood and wade through it... that's a whole lot of oof.

[Mike-Conza]

In the short term relatively both Paul and Leto II were some what a hero/villain.
The long term Paul didn’t want the burden of the golden path for humanity
Leto II embraced that he had to become a tyrant so the golden path for humanity was realised

[vokkera]

I think the point of dune is that it’s bigger than a hero or a villain- it’s about societal struggles and systems of power. The people are just… people. Even if they exist outside the scopes that we know today.

[obadijahparks]

I feel like Paul is more of a tragic, what could have been, character rather than the villain sort.

[PeloquinDavid]

Superb overview. Dune is nothing if not a modern Greek tragedy and the "Golden Path" is such a bitterly ironic term.

As you may know, Frank Herbert drew the very name "Atreides" from Greek myth: the "House of Atreus" is the English version of that Greek term and refers to multiple generations of a family that suffers under a multi-generational "curse of the gods".

The "original" adaptation(s) of those myths were done by the playwrights of Classical Greek theatre. Many from the Atreides line got tragedies written about them that have survived from Classical times.

The ancient Greeks knew full well that there were many ways to be a "chosen one" and the very morally ambiguous nature of their gods meant this was typically a very dangerous business.

Dune picks up a lot of these themes - albeit within a godless universe. I can only hope that Villeneuve's series of films at least makes it to the end of Paul's story arc (i.e. at the end of "Children of Dune") and his ultimate tragedy - that Paul's "feet of clay" condemned his own son to sacrifice HIS humanity and to be cursed by humanity for all time.

[jamesnoe]

Blame Jessica, she was supposed to have a girl .. 😂😂😂

[mndrew]

It's almost like Herbert thought it possible that overthrowing a corrupt monarchy might lead to a Cromwellian pogrom or a reign of terror. :)

[atrution]

Doctor Yueh's choice is better represented with the 'prisoner's dilemma" than the "trolley problem", especially with the justification you provide.

[chrissmith]

Leto his wormself said, "they will call me Shaitan" while some call him Shai hulud; so he is both the devil and god, villain and hero. It depends on your understanding and perspective. This is how Moneo went from believing Leto was the villain to believing he was THE hero.

[ThatKenpoGuy]

Unrelated to the excellent video but the Hobbit hole in four seasons paintings in the background are lovely!

[narrator]

There is a problem with the Trolley Problem.
No one ever picks the third possible option, or even realizes it exists as far as I can tell.
Just jam the switch halfway and derail the trolley.

P.S. I love the new look for your hair.

[StrangeAesir]

“Explorers in the further regions of experience.
Daemons to some; Angels to others”