Beyond the One: Unraveling Plotinus and Pure Relationality with Robert Gray and Eric Orwoll

In this episode, John Vervaeke, Robert Gray, and Eric Orwell explore the intricacies of Plotinus, Neo-Platonism, and pure relationality. They meticulously analyze James Filler's thought-provoking paper, viewing its ideas through Heidegger's philosophy and the essence of language. The concept of pure relationality and its impact on our understanding of reality is thoroughly examined, highlighting key themes such as the One, sacredness, and ethical dimensions. Diverse perspectives are brought into dialogue, and traditional views are critically assessed, as the guests reconstruct philosophical concepts for the contemporary world. The episode offers both grounding exercises and detailed analysis, taking listeners on a journey through ancient wisdom to discover its relevance in addressing today's challenges.

Eric Orwoll is a Christian Platonist philosopher and the creator of the Understanding Platonism and Aarvoll YouTube channels.

Robert Gray is the creator of The Meditating Philosopher YouTube channel.

Glossary of Terms

Relational Ontology: The philosophical study that posits relations rather than substances as the fundamental constituents of reality.
Neoplatonism: A philosophical system that emphasizes the spiritual and metaphysical aspects of reality, drawing on Plato's ideas.

John Vervaeke:

Eric Orwoll
YouTube:

Robert Gray

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John Vervaeke YouTube

Books, Articles, and Publications
Heidegger, Neoplatonism, and the History of Being: Relation as Ontological Ground - James Filler

Quotes

"It reminded me of the attitude towards language in the Platonic dialogues, where Socrates moves into something more poetic, almost verse. There's that shift between prosaic, dialectical investigation and mytho-poetic, dreamlike exposition. That's interesting; I've identified those mythic sections often contain the deepest insights about the nature of reality." - Eric Orwoll [00:07:06]

"It helped to explain how and why those two are non logically one. That gave me a profound aha. Then, the critique of substance in the Aristotelian sense, where the subject predicate nature of logic and language is the same fundamental structure of reality, reality is made up of independently existing things that contain properties or enter into action." - John Vervaeke [00:16:00]

Chapters

[00:00:00] - Introduction and Grounding Exercise
[00:03:20] - Overview of James Filler's Work
[00:08:20] - Theological Poetic Language and Plato's Ontology
[00:12:40] - Hemispheric Approaches to Reasoning
[00:14:07] - John's Personal and Philosophical Reflections on Filler's Work
[00:20:08] - Dissecting Filler's Arguments: Exegesis and Ontological Inquiry
[00:30:20] - Revisiting Relationality and Unity: Ethical and Ontological Nuances
[00:46:00] - Navigating Reality: From Illusion to Sacredness
[00:52:56] - Tradition and Global Spirituality
[01:04:56] - Bridging Metaphysical Necessity and Cognitive Pluralism
[01:15:08] - A Philosophical Inquiry into Forms and Instantiations
[01:23:18] - Final Thoughts and Future Conversations

[johnvervaeke]

I do not condone racism or antisemitism. I was only aware of Eric’s work on Platonism which is very high calibre. I apologize for my ignorance.

[blakeceres]

Eric is a great guest. Incredibly insightful for such a young guy. His channel is great too.

[Rttlwomen]

Enjoyable conversation, hope to see more from Eric on your channel in the future 👍

[ChucksExotics]

I actually learned about Vervaeke through watching Eric, glad to see them finally meet. Great conversation.

[jibdee]

Great conversation. I was very impressed by both the guests and Eric in particular.

[A_Koenig]

Fascinating discussion! Eric is an honest and gifted mind.
I would love to see someone dive deeper into the resonance between this reading of Neoplatonism and the Madhyamaka philosophy of Nagarjuna. Listening to the discussion I was constantly reminded of classical Mahayana doctrines like dependent origination and emptiness of self-existence.

[CastleClique]

WOW!!! THANKS SO MUCH FOR HAVING ERIC ON!!! I AM SOOOO HYPE!

[mrgentraum]

Awesome discussion. Eric is a great guest. I would love to see him on again!

[Finn]

😂 never thought I’d see Eric on this channel. A surprise to be sure, but a welcome one.

[GlobeHackers]

It's beyond incredible to see you philosophizing with John. What a fascinating and brilliant group—genuine seekers. The tubes can facilitate some exciting connections...what fun

[lp.e]

An excellent discussion, and many solid points on procession and identity.. More guests like this

[vangoghsear]

Nice for you to have Eric on. I very misunderstood guy.

[LaymansPursuit]

Baaaahhhh that was getting so interesting at the end. Having an ethical prioritisation of the active over the passive is such a juicy take.

I really hope you and Eric revisit this.

[TheMeditatingPhilosopher]

Thanks, John and Eric for the chance to talk about this! Eric & I have another talk on my channel about this paper, and John and I have a great recent "4P's of Loving" Valentines Day episode many of you might like there as well! 😎🙏

We also have 3 other talks on mostly Platonism and John's relevance realization work on my channel, so just check them out if you enjoyed any of this!

(My version of this video even has the full Heidegger interview at the end too, so you can see all of it if you wondered about it. (subtitled too if you don't know German.)

I can't wait for John's talk with James Filler and am reading more of the book John energetically held up at the start right now. 😉

[wanderingpoet]

What a truly fascinating philosophical conversation. As regards that tension between yang / yin, active / passive limit / unlimit, identity / openness I would propose the following which combines John and Eric's points:

Whilst we are still caught up in temporalility there must be a subtle preponderance of the active principle, constantly in dialogue with its opposite principle, in order for progress to be made. (For Buddhism at least ultimately it is the attribution of fixed identity to the flow of experience that holds us back!) The goal is wisdom, which (whilst it is beyond all dichotomies) is symbolised by the receptive principle (eg female wisdom deities in Buddhism). So we should actively strive to be fully and perfectly receptive!

[CastleClique]

I find it ironic that people are attacking Eric, but nobody's mentioning the fact Heidegger was a Nazi. Anyways, please don't let the woke mob intimidate you!

[HeraldofZeus]

To me, "relationality" sounds like just another term for Logos. If Logos is proportion, i.e. relation (between parts, between parts and wholes, etc.) then it absolutely does have an inherently dynamic nature. I don't think it is a coincidence that whenever Platonism is isolated and removed from its religious context it seems to spawn problems that people then need to find solutions for in order to complete the system of Plato. Hermes is the embodiment of Logos, and his dynamism is self-evident through his travels between realms, as he is the permeating word of Zeus, who unifies all things via this proportion.

I agree with Eric in that the kind of ethical implication of the language used by the Platonists should not be seen as arbitrary or transient. The emphasis of the Good is crucial, as it speaks to the supra-intelligent nature inherent in the wonder of the ineffable, whereas "indeterminate relationality" almost seems to trap it in the intellectual sphere and deprive it of the finger pointing upwards.

[Joeonline]

Just began Eric Perl's book 'Theophany' recently, so this was a welcome surprise. Thanks John!

[mcapello]

Fascinating discussion and excellent to see relational ontology not only given its due, but extrapolated through Platonism in these wonderfully convergent ways. It would be nice to someday see this track reconciled with the related work that's been done in anthropology over the last few decades (Latour, Descola, Vivieros de Castro, Eduardo Kohn, etc), particularly with respect to naturalism.

I do agree with John that there may be a error in embracing the freedom of relationality only to return too hastily to the propositional boundaries of identity, as emphasized by Eric; it is in interesting that some of the consequences of this mistake are perhaps borne out in the comments.

[He.knows.nothing]

How should one best delve into the works of whitehead and goethe?