TypeScript Drama and Open Source Opinions

Recently 37signals co-founders David Heinemeier Hansson and Jason Fried found themselves at the center of an unexpected internet storm. It all began when David made a significant announcement: Turbo 8 would no longer be using TypeScript.

What followed was a whirlwind of controversy and social media fireworks.

In today's discussion, Kimberly Rhodes sits down with Jason and David to unpack the impact of social media on these types of discussions and the broader implications of these online controversies on open source contributions.

Show Notes:

[00:00] - Kimberly opens up the discussion, sharing the recent announcement made by David, that Turbo 8 would no longer utilize TypeScript and the resulting online controversy.
[00:33] - Jason shares his reaction to the drama unfolding and offers kudos to David for handling the storm with grace.
[01:34] - David shares how it all began with eternal debate: dynamic vs. static languages, strong vs. weak typing, and 37signals is firmly in the dynamic, free-spirited camp.
[02:23] - What led to the BIG decision to pull the TypeScript plug?
[03:19] - Dynamic vs. static, it's like arguing about your favorite pizza topping.
[04:13] - TypeScript was removed in record time (freeing the code!).
[04:59] - This debate is like a merry-go-round of arguments (and we're not here to convert anyone).
[05:48] - David shares: "People have preconceived notions about my opinions, and when we go against the flow, it's bound to stir the pot," (remember the cloud exit?).
[07:32] - Programmers can turn small details into raging infernos and social media is like a dry brush waiting for a spark.
[08:45] - Compared to fighting Apple for HEY.com or navigating the minefield of workplace politics, this is just a minor skirmish.
[10:38] - Humans naturally tend to form tribes and defend their beliefs, but internet drama usually loses its fervor in 24-36 hours.
[11:38] - Jason shares the binary nature of most debates such as air-cooled vs. water-cooled Porsches or car collectors' preferences.
[12:25] - Kimberly comments on the polarized nature of the comments.
[12:38] - There is value in discussing ideas so long as the debates don’t devolve into personal attacks.
[14:39] - How personal attacks gain traction.
[15:44] - The importance of embracing diversity in programming languages and techniques for a more vibrant tech world.
[17:24] - David shares insight from his recent trip to Japan and the beauty of appreciating different cultures without feeling the need for uniformity.
[18:42] - David reveals whether this unexpected negativity has changed his view of open source and sharing.
[20:40] - David will continue to contribute to open source BUT…
[21:26] - Please don’t spoil open source contributions for everyone else.
[23:16] - David shares a surprising recurring theme in the Rework podcast and why it’s important to speak out about your beliefs—especially those you are hesitant to voice publicly.
[24:01] - David discusses whether this kerfuffle has had any effect on the 37signals team.
[25:19] - Rework is a production 37signals. You can find show notes and transcripts on our website. Full video episodes are available on Twitter and YouTube. If you have a specific question for Jason or David about a better way to work and run your business, leave your voicemails at 708-628-7850 or send an email.

Links and Resources:

[dominuskelvin]

David being able to handle the drama is just legendary

[veejay]

I appreciate how patient Jason was allowing David to vent. :)

[sakchais]

David’s sense of humor is much appreciated. Love the podcast.

[nikolamiticdev]

I have been writing JS/TS for about 7 years now. I'm exhausted of polarizing topics and highly opinionated developers that never ever focus on customer/user value. Which in the end brings the money and keeps the business alive. Makes me wonder if mindset we developers have contributed to recent layoffs we are all witnessing.

This topic, as well, getting tired of it. The majority of us can't even choose which frameworks and tools work in. Depends on what the company is using. And good luck with changing that.

Focus on value, guys. Maybe we all build better software and UIs.

[BilalBudhani]

I admire David's ability to resist constant mob attacks and coming out strong. I also would like to highlight - Most of his bold decisions in the past has benefited Rails community greatly.

[musequal]

HEY! People resist change, especially in the polarizing frameworks folks seem to be caught up in. Glad to see you sticking to what works best for you and your team, things change, for the better and different approaches shake things up. Great show, thanks for the info, gladly missed a lot of the hype on this. Thanks for another great cast! *Edit: Go team Jota Sport, don't know why I had Oreca on my mind!

[memiux]

Honey wake up 37signals just posted a new episode. ♥🍿

[ChatGTA]

Just wanted to say thanks for keeping it light-hearted and so spot on. FWIW, I liked TypeScript when I used it (not in Turbo though), but I also like challenging my own assumptions - as I feel we all should do, from time to time. Otherwise, there's no room for innovation and improvement, and everyone is worse off in the long-term.

[aurangzaibkhan]

So much grateful to David for leading the way!

[rockatanescu]

David was not joking, as the current drama is related to Unity. Who knows what will be tomorrow's Twitter drama.

[ximizu]

10:18 "You hold your knife wrong!" 😂😂😂 so funny the metaphor with the Chef and the knife

[nonefvnfvnjnjnjevjenjvonej]

Thanks for having the courage to do these things. Honestly the amount of "we have to do things this way because others do it" is so much in the programming community. And nobody would deny that typescript makes code ugly. Some typescript errors would probably rank as some of the worst errors that I have had to deal with in my 10 years of programming experience. And I was just thinking about it the other day, one needs to be careful about what a tool enables: typescript enables code which is highly "complected" to use a word from rich hickey (clojure) because now you can simple wrap abstractions over and over again because you feel you can always refactor thanks to the type system. Plain JS makes you automatically cringe when things are going off the rails and keep things simple. It worked great back in the day and it works great now!

[thefonsotube]

Too free is chaos .... and I'm too old for chaos.

[KevinMacKenzie]

I wonder is Jason ever goes, "FFS, again." This one was a tough one as there were people I have huge respect for and they weren't always behaving in a matter I found respectful. But then again, it was twitter.

[IgorGuerrero]

Japan is amazing, I went to Europe (did a 2.5 months tour trip on a camper van) after visiting Japan, and people, that haven't gone to Japan, were telling me "yeah europe is also so advanced", now I wish I did the camper van trip in Japan instead...

[kevinjacoby]

I started to find an analogy to explain what happened with people ranting about moving away from typescript. The analagy started like this:

It's like people complaining about bees polinating flowers, bees go on and polinated different flowers and bees make honey, and ... wait ... my analogy doesn't make any sense.
Yep, that's it, none of this make sense, what a great analogy
_switching off my brain with jokes no one understands but me_

Non funny jokes aside, you dont like the direction of something open source ? Fork it, bring typescript back and maintain it. Best wait to solve something that bothers you is to take actions.

[darthfikus]

Not having restrictions if great when people know what they are doing.
Reverse is also true.

[mosesnandi]

“I never liked that way of writing code” Head on! And that applies to a whole lot of concepts and paradigms. The same can be said about OOP

[codes]

It's like cutting pasta, everyone freaks out ... but in the the end, it's the same pasta.

[vsg]

I agree with DHH on most issues, don't know why...